[轉錄][外電] 解構Kobe(上)

看板KobeBryant作者kb81 (小飛俠..天下無敵...)時間16年前 (2009/06/23 16:59)推噓4(4推 0噓 1→)

留言5則, 5人參與討論串1/1

※ [本文轉錄自 Lakers 看板] 作者: richard1003 (總板文字獄) 看板: Lakers 標題: [外電] 解構Kobe(上) 時間: Tue Jun 23 16:41:49 2009 There is no doubt that this title meant as much to Kobe, and to the public’s perception of his legacy, than perhaps any title has meant to any player in recent memory. In that spirit, we have been showered with stories praising Kobe, dissecting his relief, evaluating his transformation, figuring his place in history, analyzing his relationship with Phil and his teammates, etc., etc., ad nauseam. This has been fun, even if much of it is puffy, revisionist, or based on somewhat distorted generalizations about the facts (both statistical and otherwise). 這座冠軍對Kobe有多大意義是毋庸置疑的,對於大眾對他的傳奇的認識也是一樣大,甚至比對任何球員都要大.我們已經看到很多誇獎Kobe的文章,分析他的接班人,衡量他的轉變,研究他的歷史地位,探討他和Phil及隊友的關係....等等.這很有趣,儘管很多是膨風,胡扯,和隨便歸納(不管是數據還是其他). But we’ve also seen something of a Kobe backlash. This must be the case with Kobe, who polarizes and divides the sports world in strange ways usually associated only with religious/political figures. When you watch Kobe, you care. You don't lukewarmly clap as you do with Lebron, Wade, Paul, Duncan, or even Jordan. You follow with whole-souled loyalty and love or unbreakable hatred and opposition. No matter where you stand, you care about Kobe; you are interested in him; and you watch him with real emotional investment. Accordingly, having Kobe push through the finals every year is a boon for the league. No one stands at the water cooler debating Spurs-Pistons, or even something seemingly epic like Celtics-Cavs. 當然我們也會看到反科的文章.只要跟Kobe有關,整個運動世界就被分成奇怪的兩派,簡直和宗教或政治一樣.當你看Kobe(文章)時,你關心.你在看LeBron,Wade,Paul,Duncan,甚至 Jordan時,反應永遠不會那麼熱烈.你不是完全死忠和愛Kobe,就是恨死了而且永遠反科.不管你站在哪邊,你都是關心Kobe,對他感興趣,,而且投入很多的情緒.事實上Kobe每年打進總冠軍賽對聯盟是莫大的利益.沒人想討論冷得像冰水的馬刺對活塞,或者只是表面上被炒成史詩的塞爾提克對騎士. The sports world might be more obsessed with Kobe’s legacy than perhaps any player in league (or sports) history. Jordan dispassionately ascended to the pinnacle; Duncan and Shaq are casually placed somewhere in the top 5-10 range; we didn’t argue about Magic and Bird’s place, they just kind of arrived near the top. But we argue and wrangle and declare Kobe’s place in the hierarchy of gods with a different spirit – one attended by stretched stats and forced comparisons. By the time his work is finished he’ll have put together a stunning body of work. If he plays another 5-6 years and LA makes several more deep playoff runs, we could be looking at something in the realm of 5-6 titles, 8-9 finals appearances, multiple finals mvp awards, 15-16 all nba first teams, 12 all nba defense teams, 3-4 all star mvp awards, 3rd all time scorer, all time playoff scorer, two time olympic gold medalist, not to mention the unparalleled highlights. He’ll have won the title with two wholly different teams, both opposed by (potentially) all time top 5 greats in their prime (Duncan and Lebron). This may be optimistic, but it’s more possible than you think. Kobe的傳奇可能比其他任何球員(或運動員)更能讓運動世界令人著迷.Jordan太過完美的登上了巔峰;Duncan和Shaq一定會被排在Top5-10,也沒人會懷疑魔術和大鳥的地位,他們無疑都站在頂端.但是我們不斷的爭論Kobe的地位是否已經到神的等級-透過數據和不斷的強迫比較.當Kobe完成他的生涯,他的成績可能會讓人目瞪口呆.如果他再打5-6年,而且湖人都能在季後賽打得很深,我們可能看到一個Kobe王朝:5-6座總冠軍,8-9次西區冠軍,幾座總冠軍 MVP,15-16次NBA第一隊,12次NBA防守隊,3-4次明星賽MVP,史上得分榜第三,史上季後賽得分王,兩次奧運金牌,更別提無數精彩畫面.他將會打敗當代最強的兩個球員(Duncan和LeBron) 的球隊贏得冠軍.這也許太過樂觀,但是比你想得更有可能發生. The Kobe haters sense this and know that this title acts as a swift and final counter to their long paraded criticisms. They see that Kobe is on his way to achieving something un-rebuttable (if that is a word) and that drives them mad. And so, we hear old and new criticisms whispered (or trumpeted in Simmons case) against Kobe: This Laker team was just the least flawed among a flawed group of contenders. Kobe still has not learned to trust his teammates and make them better. His relationship with Phil and his teammates is staged; they can’t stand him at heart. His numbers look sparkling but he was inefficient and selfish; the real credit belongs with Ariza, Gasol, and others. Even with this title, Kobe is not Jordan and is now worse than Lebron. 反科迷也意識到這座冠軍等於是對他們長期以來批評的倒數計時,他們看到Kobe將要達成他們無法反對的成就,這讓他們氣瘋了.因此我們又聽到一些舊的新的對Kobe批評的耳語( Simmons老兄是大聲疾呼啦): 這支湖人只是眾多缺點很多的球隊中比較沒缺點的那支而已. Kobe還是沒學會相信隊友並讓他們更好. 他和Phil,和隊友的關係是裝的,他們沒有心連心. 他的數據很好看但是沒效率,真正有貢獻的是Ariza,Gasol,和其他人. 即使贏了冠軍,Kobe還是比不上Jordan,現在也輸給LeBron. The goal of the Kobe hater is clear: undermine, undermine, undermine. Now, as a Laker blog we are duty bound to defend our shining knight. More significantly, we are a blog devoted to reason, evidence, and substantive discussion. We despise fluff and all of its corollaries. As this recent wave of Kobe attacks are based on shallow and/or false interpretations of the factual record (or no facts at all), they will be addressed in turn. Above all of that, I’m bored and enjoy arguing, so I will take on take on some of these Kobe criticisms. 反科迷的目標很明顯:貶低,貶低,再貶低.現在,身為湖人部落格的作者,我們有責任捍衛我們的騎士.我們是一個理性,證據,實在討論的部落格.我們鄙視錯誤百出的推論.最近對Kobe 的攻擊是根基於對於事實(有時甚至不是事實)的膚淺和錯誤解讀,因為我很無聊又愛爭論, 我將負責依次反擊這些批評. Now, in full disclosure, I am an unabashed Kobe homer. But I am reasonable and mostly capable of objectivity. Above all, I support my conclusions with facts. I don’t interpret facial expressions, read minds, reconstruct conversations, or analyze hugs and handshakes. Such is irresponsible journalism, and, even though I am not a journalist, I find it somewhere between silly and offensive. 現在,我完全承認我是科迷,但是我很理性且努力做到客觀.我用事實支持我的理論,我不做看面相,讀心術,或者說文解字,或者分析肢體語言.這些都是不負責任的報導,雖然我不是妓者,我還是覺得這種報導可笑且冒犯人. 1. Kobe is Not Jordan This is often used in support of the go to anti-Kobe argument: that he is not Jordan. How many times have we all heard this? “Yeah, well, he may have X, but Kobe’s still not Jordan no matter what he does.” The most relevant and simple response is, of course, who cares. We have nothing riding on Kobe being Jordan. We care about titles and glory for LA and we receive an abundant portion of both. Furthermore, as Dex noted so eloquently, why this fascination with ranking athletes? Given the wildly different context in which every superstar plays, we are fundamentally incapable of objectively comparing them. Wilt vs. Shaq? Stockton vs. Cousy? Bird v. Lebron? There’s no way to accurately make these comparisons. But even if we could, why do we need to? More Dex: we don’t sit around and rank Tolstoy, Dostoevsky, and Joyce. They are all transcendent geniuses and we simply appreciate that they mastered their craft and brighten our world in different, though always brilliant ways. 1.Kobe不是Jordan 這是反科最常用的言論:Kobe不是Jordan.我們到底聽到這句話幾次了?"噢,對,Kobe達成了X ,但是Kobe不管做什麼他還是比不上Jordan."基本上意思就是說,管他的,反正Jordan永遠騎在Kobe頭上.我們關心的是湖人的冠軍和光榮,我們也得到了.這麼愛比的話,幹嘛不把明星球員都拿來超級比一比?Wilt vs. Shaq? Stockton vs. Cousy? Bird v. Lebron?你根本無法在這種比較中得出精確的結果.就算可以,我們幹嘛要比?你會去把托爾斯泰, 杜斯妥也夫斯基,喬伊斯做排名嗎?他們都是卓越的天才,我們感謝他們留下作品改變了世界 ,這才是聰明的方法. Nevertheless, as Kobe comparisons with Jordan will never go away, let’s ensure that they proceed on the facts, not some revisionist and agenda-driven notion of them. 無論如何,既然Kobe和Jordan的比較免不了,那麼我們要確定它是根據事實,不是修正主義或者印象派. Kobe VS Jordan finals Points FGA FG% FT% 3P% Rebounds Assists Player A 33.5 27.3 42.7 81.4 30.8 4 2.3 Player B 32.3 26.3 45.5 76.4 32 7 6 Player C 27.3 20.5 41.5 83.6 31.6 5.3 4.2 Player D 32.4 27 43 84.1 36 5.6 7.4 This chart represents four sets of finals statistics from MJ and Kobe. Which set is the most impressive? It has to be Player D, right? Although he shot a somewhat lower percentage from the field than Player B, this is more than overcome by the higher free throw and 3 point %’s, along with significantly higher rebound and assist totals. Players A-C is Jordan during his last three finals runs (98, 97, and 96); Player D is Kobe in 2009. 這表格顯示MJ和Kobe在總冠軍賽的表現.哪一個球員最讓人印象深刻?D球員,對吧?即使他投籃命中率比B球員低一些,但是也有更高的罰球和三分命中率,籃板球和助攻也比其他人來得高.A-C是96~98的Jordan,D是今年的Kobe. Beyond showing that Kobe is indeed firmly in Jordan’s ballpark (at least “ Phase II Jordan”), these statistics rebut a few attacks levied against Kobe recently. First, they show that Kobe is as willing of a passer, if not more so, than Jordan – and this is at the end of Jordan’s career, when he was supposedly the most team-oriented. Kobe has been accused of recklessly jacking up shots on a solo mission, with Jordan held up as the prototype. But Jordan shot as frequently as Kobe, even though his shooting percentage in two of the three finals is lower than Kobe’s. Jordan didn’t just pass to Paxson one day and ride off to a pass-happy, gunner-controlled sunset. 上面顯示了Kobe表現其實和Jordan差不多(至少,第二階段的Jordan),這是對Kobe批評有力的回擊.這顯示Kobe也是個至少和Jordan一樣好的傳球者-這是在Jordan的生涯後期,應該是他最有團隊觀念的時刻.Kobe被指控一直做單打跳投,Jordan的跳投則是模範.但是事實上 Jordan出手次數和Kobe一樣多,有兩年他的命中率還比Kobe低.Jordan不是把球傳給Paxon以後就不出手了耶. Did Kobe take some ill advised shots? Undoubtedly. But what does that prove? What superstar wing doesn’t? Besides Jordan, only two other players in nba history have averaged 30 points and 7 assists in the finals – Kobe and Jerry West. Kobe’s unselfish playmaking in the finals is nearly unparalleled. By way of comparison, Wade, who gets so much credit for his 2006 finals run, averaged 3.8 assists per game – half of Kobe’s total. Kobe有沒有做一些勉強出手?當然有,但是那又證明什麼?哪個明星鋒衛沒有?除了Jordan,只有兩個人能在總冠軍賽平均30分7助攻-Kobe和Jerry West.Kobe在總冠軍賽的無私表現幾乎是無可比擬的,Wade在2006冠軍賽的表現得到很多評價,但是他3.8助攻只有Kobe的一半. Second, Kobe was as efficient as Jordan during his last three title runs. Jordan’s free throw and 3 point percentages were lower every year. Much is made of Kobe’s struggles in games 3 and 4 of the finals, but Jordan was equally capable of having an off night. In the 98 finals Jordan shot over 50% once and put up shooting nights of 9-26, 14-33, 15-35, and 13-29. In the 97 finals, Chicago lost games 3 and 4 as Jordan shot 9-22 and 11-27. In 96 against Seattle, two of the final three games witnessed 6-19 and 5-19 performances. My point is that it is disingenuous to knock Kobe for having an off game now and then. Yes Kobe sometimes forces things when he doesn’t have it, but it is revisionist history to say that Jordan didn’t sometimes do the same. Much like Kobe’s Lakers, Jordan’s Bulls were complete teams that were fully capable of winning when he showed his mortal side. And, like Kobe, Jordan was capable of controlling a game even with a struggling jumper. 第二,Kobe和Jordan一樣有效率,Jordan的罰球和三分球一年比一年低,和Kobe在G3,G4的情況很像,但是Jordan就被允許有一場表現不好,98冠軍賽,Jordan有一場命中率高於50%,但是其他場是9-26, 14-33, 15-35,和13-29.97冠軍賽,公牛輸掉G3,G4,Jordan只有9-22和11-27 .96對西雅圖,G4和G6是6-19和5-19.我的重點是,Kobe有時候會失常,以後也會,是的他有時候太過強求,但是歷史告訴我們Jordan也是一樣.Kobe的湖人和Jordan的公牛一樣,即使他們露出凡人的那一面仍然能贏球,而Jordan也和Kobe一樣,當他們跳投不順時仍然能掌控比賽. When evaluating and comparing efficiency, we also need to place these performances in their proper context. Kobe’s last two finals runs have been against the teams that finished first in defensive efficiency (Boston and Orlando). Is it fair to hold it against him that he shot a few percentage points lower than usual? Continuing the above comparison, Jordan’s 98 finals were against the league’s 16th ranked defense (Utah), and the 97 finals against the 9th ranked defense (Utah). If Kobe played against Milwaukee or Dallas in the finals (two middle of the road defensive teams), what would his numbers have looked like? 當比較效率的時候,我們要先了解正確的背景:Kobe過去兩次總冠軍賽面對的是聯盟防守效率第一的球隊(波士頓和奧蘭多).批評他命中率比平時低是公平的嗎?Jordan在98年面對的猶他只排第16,97猶他排第9,如果Kobe面對的是達拉斯或密爾瓦基(兩支防守中段班球隊). 他的數據會是如何? Now, my point is not that Kobe is as good as or better than Jordan. He has obviously not put together an equivalent body of work. And, it is fair to point out that Jordan was 32-34 during the three finals runs listed above (although with much less mileage than Kobe will have at a similar stage due to college and baseball). More importantly, Kobe has not approximated Jordan’ s first three finals runs, which are simply off the charts. For example, 1993 against Phoenix: 41 points, 8.5 rebounds, 6.3 assists on 50.7% shooting. Although even these great early finals runs for Jordan need to be read in context. With respect to the Phoenix series, note that (1) Phoenix had the 9th ranked defense, and (2) the league shot almost 2% points higher in the early 90s compared with recent seasons. I keep harping on the former point because it is salient — in any year it is difficult to maintain peak efficiency against the very elite defenses. Consider that in those same 1993 playoffs Jordan faced the league’s #1 defense in the conference finals (New York) and had a nightmare series, averaging only 10 makes on 26 attempts, good for 40% shooting. In the first three games of this series, he shot 10-28, 12-32, and 3-18. In the final game he went 8-24. That represents 4 of the 6 games (although he did have a huge 54 point explosion in game 4, when the Bulls were down 2-1 and needed a win). 我的重點並不是說Kobe和Jordan一樣或是更好.因為他們當時身體情況不同,必須指出 Jordan在那三次冠軍賽已經32-34歲了(雖然高中棄學的Kobe里程數可能差不多).更重要的, Kobe還比不上Jordan第一次三連霸的表現,1993對太陽:41分8.5籃板6.3助攻,50.7%命中率. 不過也得指出當時太陽防守只排聯盟第九,而且當時聯盟得分比現在高2%.我一直嘮叨過去的分數是因為你碰到頂尖防守球隊要保持效率是很難的.同一年碰到防守第一的紐約, Jordan有了個惡夢系列,平均投26只中10,命中率40%,前三場比賽他是10-28,12-32,和3-18, 最後一場是8-24.(雖然他在G5有54分爆發) Still, Kobe’s not Jordan. His career resume and best playoff performances still fall short. We don’t ultimately care, but many of the arguments that attempt to discredit Kobe by pointing to Jordan simply get the facts wrong. I don’t want to hear that Kobe’s on a stubborn solo mission, won’t pass, and has too many mortal games — and have Jordan thrown in my face. Kobe just put up a finals that was on par with and probably eclipsed Jordan’s last three finals, and he did so against the league’s best defensive team. Kobe仍然不是Jordan,他的生涯還在繼續,他的表現也不是史上最佳季後賽表現.我們根本不在乎.但是那些用Jordan來貶損Kobe的人明顯錯了.我不要再聽什麼Kobe是自幹王不傳球,然後打得很爛等等等等-然後把Jordan丟過來.Kobe剛剛在總冠軍賽證明了他和第二次三連霸的Jordan打得一樣好,而且是面對聯盟第一的防守球隊. 2. Kobe is Not Lebron Now, this is also true: Kobe is not Lebron. But now I’m speaking metaphysically as opposed to comparatively. The common argument goes something like this. Lebron is better than Kobe because his stats are far superior; the only reason Lebron didn’t beat Orlando and Kobe did is because Lebron’s teammates forsook him. 2.Kobe不是Lebron 現在,這也是事實:Kobe不是Lebron.不過我現在要反駁一些抽象的比較.什麼Lebron比Kobe 好因為數據比較漂亮啦,Lebron沒打敗奧蘭多而Kobe贏了是因為他的隊友比較差啦.... The truth is that Lebron’s stats against Orlando (and during the regular season) are far superior to Kobe’s, but they don’t tell the whole story. Lebron and Kobe’s stats vs. Orlando: 事實上LeBron對上奧蘭多的數據是遠遜於Kobe,這還不是全部: Kobe and LeBron VS Orlando Points FG% FT% 3P% Rebounds Assists Team off efficiency Kobe 32.4 43 84.1 36 5.6 7.4 110.1 LeBron 38.5 48.7 74.5 29.7 8.3 8 109.7 What do we make of these numbers? Well, in terms of pure volume Lebron wins out. He also shot a significantly higher percentage from the field. But I want to extrapolate from the team offensive efficiency and three point shooting numbers. Both LA and Cleveland demolished Orlando’s league leading defense with 110 ratings, but LA did it as a team and Lebron did it alone. One way of viewing this is to praise Lebron over Kobe; the other is to recognize that Lebron was less capable of opening up the game for his teammates. I posit that Kobe’s refined offensive game actually is much more conducive to creating and enhancing teammate opportunities, even if Lebron is usually praised as the more willing passer. 為什麼要列這些數據?看起來LeBron好像贏了,他投籃命中率也比較高.但是我要從團隊進攻效率和三分命中率來分析.洛杉磯和克里夫蘭兩隊都以110的效率破壞奧蘭多聯盟第一的防守,但是洛杉磯是靠團隊而LeBron是靠自己.一個解讀方法是LeBron比Kobe好,但另一方面也可以說LeBron幫隊友製造的空檔不夠.Kobe精緻的進攻更有助於創造和增加隊友機會,即使 LeBron一直被誇獎是更好的傳球者. Ric Bucher actually got me thinking about this in a Simmons podcast. He said that while Lebron put up sparkling numbers, he did so very inefficiently – but not in the sense that he shot a low %. Instead, Lebron’s lack of post game and three point shooting force him to dribble endlessly while searching for an opening to penetrate, eating away at the shot clock and leaving teammates standing stagnant. The result was often a powerful Lebron drive or free throws, but it came at a heavy cost for team play – the defense can largely play him one on one, play off him a few feet, and stay at home on his teammates. Orlando did this beautifully and Lebron fell for the trap, leading to his teammates really struggling to get easy opportunities from the field. It was Lebron or nothing every possession. Ric Bucher的podcast給了我這個想法.他說LeBron取得漂亮數據的方式極度沒效率-不是因為命中率低.因為他缺乏低位技巧和三分,迫使他必須無止盡的運球尋找空間切入,吃掉大量的進攻時間而隊友只能站著看戲.結果通常是漂亮的LeBron切入或罰球,但是這嚴重傷害到團隊進攻-對手只要一對一防他就好,其他人看著他的隊友根本不用移動.奧蘭多就很漂亮的執行,而LeBron也掉進陷阱,讓他的隊友根本很難有空檔,每一波進攻不是LeBron得分就是不進. Compare this with Kobe’s game against Orlando. Kobe is the single best post up guard in the league – his strength, footwork, and moves render him deadly on the block. As a consequence, Orlando had to double team Kobe every time he got the ball down low. Furthermore, Kobe’s unlimited range force his man to stick with him out past the three point line, even on the weak side. Kobe can score from anywhere with very little effort, whether it’s in the post, outside the three point line, on a pick and roll, in the midrange, etc. He’s also a deadly free throw shooter so the defense has to play him honest. The result? Kobe is much more capable of efficiently breaking down a defense than Lebron. Why was Fisher wide open for the game-winning three in overtime of game 4? Because Orlando had to double Kobe in the post. Why did Trevor Ariza shoot dozens and dozens of threes with no one within 10 feet of him? Ditto. Why do Pau and Odom work such an effective high-low game after Kobe initiates the pick and roll? Because the defense knows Kobe can pull up quickly from anywhere. Why did Gasol see so much single coverage? On and on we could go. 比較一下Kobe對奧蘭多的比賽.Kobe是聯盟最佳的低位進攻後衛,他的力量,腳步和移動使他對防守者相當致命.結果就是每次Kobe在低位接到球,奧蘭多就有麻煩.此外,Kobe的無限射程使他即使在弱邊,防守者也必須從三分線外就緊貼.Kobe可以在任何地方很輕鬆的得分,不管是在低位,三分線,擋切,中距離等等.他的罰球也很準使防守者不敢隨便犯規.結果?Kobe 比LeBron更能有效摧毀對手防守.為什麼Fisher有致勝三分空檔?因為奧蘭多必須去包夾 Kobe的低位.為什麼Ariza有大到像海的三分空檔?理由同上.為什麼Kobe啟動擋切後Pau和 Odom能夠如此有效率的打高低位配合?因為防守者知道Kobe會在任何地方拔起來跳投.為什麼Gasol有這麼多單打機會?我們可以一直講下去. This is how a team starting Smush Parker, Brian Cook, and Kwame Brown finished 8th in offensive efficiency in 2006. Think about that. So, while Kobe may not shoot the same percentage from the field as Lebron, his diverse, quick-hitting, polished offensive game makes him much more capable of breaking down the heart of a defense and opening up opportunities for others. All of those easy shots were there for Fisher, Ariza, Gasol, and Odom because of Kobe. And credit to them for rising up and making them. 這就是為什麼用Smush Parker,Brian Cook和Kwame Brown先發的球隊還能在06年進攻效率排第八的原因.想一想吧.Kobe可能命中率沒LeBron高,但是他多變,快速,流暢的進攻更能破壞防守者心志為隊友製造空檔.Fisher,Ariza,Gasol和Odom得到的輕鬆得分機會都是因為有 Kobe. I recognize that Lebron may have had a superior regular season than Kobe, but remember that one of them consistently cracked the elite teams and the other did not. In terms of driving a team to success, Kobe is still miles ahead of Lebron. 也許LeBron有一個比較好的例行賽,但是記得他們有一個人能持續痛擊對手而另一個沒有. 在領導球隊成功上,Kobe仍然遙遙領先. -- Ask around the league, "Who is the hardest player to guard?" The answer is inevitably: “Oh, you mean, besides Kobe?” -- ※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc) ◆ From: 114.39.17.35