[翻譯] 賽揚獎應該考慮國聯投手的打擊表現嗎?

看板MLB (美國職棒/大聯盟)作者 (澹如秋水貧中味)時間12年前 (2013/08/27 00:31), 編輯推噓44(44016)
留言60則, 45人參與, 最新討論串1/1
Should an NL pitcher’s hitting affect his Cy Young standing? 賽揚獎應該考慮國聯投手的打擊表現嗎? Should an NL pitcher’s hitting affect his Cy Young standing? Posted by Pat Andriola According to most of the established advanced pitching statistics, Matt Harvey is having a better year on the mound than Clayton Kershaw is. Harvey's 2.00 FIP and 2.60 xFIP trump Kershaw's 2.40 FIP and 2.94 xFIP by a pretty solid margin. 根據現有的進階投手數據資料,Matt Harvey 今年在投手丘上的表現比 Clayton Kershaw 更好。Matt Harvey 他 2.00 的 FIP跟 2.60 的 xFIP 都比書僮的 2.40 FIP 以及 2.94 xFIP要好出一段距離。 But although Kershaw is likely to win the Cy Young (and quite possibly the MVP as well), it isn't the infamous win-loss record that's putting him over the top; his 13-7 record is solid, but traditionally pedestrian and arguably competitive with Harvey's 9-4 record for a much worse team. Kershaw will win the Cy Young because his ERA is a majestic 1.72, despite the fact that the difference between his ERA and FIP/xFIP is easily explainable by a ridiculous .231 BABIP and career-high left-on-base rate of 80 percent. Oh well, que sera, sera; we've seen this many times before. 書僮很有可能奪下今年的賽揚獎 (還有可能順便拿下MVP),但這不是由於賽揚獎對勝負紀 錄惡名昭彰的重視,他的 13 勝 7敗很好,但是在一直明顯較弱的球隊投出 9勝 4敗的 Harvey也不至於落後太多。書僮真正的優勢在於他不可思義的 1.72 自責分率,儘管從他的 FIP/xFIP還有 .231 的 BABIP以及生涯新高的 80%殘壘率都告訴我們這不真正反應實力。相 關的討論在之前已經有過許多了。 But is there a sabermetric argument in favor of Kershaw topping Harvey? One could argue that although Harvey's 5.9 fWAR (which is based off FIP) beats Kershaw's 5.5, when you take batting WAR into account, Kershaw comes out ahead. Harvey is hitting just .088/.088/.123 this year, good for an awful wRC+ of -53 and -0.3 WAR, dropping his overall fWAR total to 5.6. Meanwhile, Kershaw has been one of the best hitting pitchers in baseball with a .156/.217/.250 slash line in 76 plate appearances, good for 0.4 WAR, bringing his overall fWAR to 5.9. 那麼,有任何棒球統計學上的理由支持 Kershaw 比 Harvey更適合拿賽揚獎嗎?可能會有 人宣稱雖然 Harvey 5.9 的 fWAR ( 此數據主要由 FIP 支持)勝過 Kershaw的 5.5,但是 如果你把兩個人的打擊成績考慮進來的話,那麼其實 Kershaw是勝過 Harvey 的。Harvey 今年的打擊成績只有 .088/.088/.123 ,導致了慘烈的 053 wRC+ 以及 -0.3 WAR ,使得 他總合的fWAR下降到了 5.6。相對之下,Kershaw 今年在 76 個打席中打出了 .156/.217 /.250 ,大聯盟最佳的投手打擊表現之一,貢獻了 0.4 WAR並且讓他的 fWAR 來到 5.9。 So the real question is: Should any of this matter? 所以現在問題是,投手的打擊表現需要一起考慮嗎? First awarded in 1956 and invented by then-commissioner Ford Frick, the Cy Young award purports to go to the "best pitcher." It's not a stretch to distinguish between the "best pitcher" and the "player who pitches best" to make the case that being a pitcher in the National League entails not just pitching, but hitting. 1956年由後來成為大聯盟主席的 Ford Frick 創立並首次頒獎,賽揚獎意圖獎勵 "最佳投 手"。但是在國聯,由於投手也要打擊,使得 "最佳投手" 和 "投球表現最好的球員" 兩個 詞出現了不同的意思。 Although we often think of pitchers hitting as some sort of cute sideshow to "real baseball" that doesn't have much impact, the fWAR numbers aren't any less real than those for Mike Trout or Miguel Cabrera. The only question is whether the Cy Young award should consider a pitcher's season at the plate (and, related, in the field and on the base paths, although those WAR numbers are usually low enough to leave them as a non-issue). 儘管我們常常把投手的打擊當成某種 "真正的棒球比賽" 之間不重要的穿插表演,計算出 的fWAR還是有一樣的真實性,就像去年轟轟烈烈的 Mike Trout vs Miguel Cabrera 事件 一樣。所以真正的問題還是,賽揚獎到底該不該考慮投手的打擊表現,乃至更進一步,投 手的守備還有跑壘等等。 My gut answer would be "no," that for the purposes of the award the intent is "who pitched the best," despite the "best pitcher" language. But in terms of figuring out who had a more valuable season overall? Kershaw's bat may prove determinative. 我的直覺反應是不,這個獎是為 "投球表現最好的球員" 而非 "最好的投手" 所設立的。 但是如果問題是誰的球季總體表現更好,那麼 Kershaw才是正確答案。 http://tinyurl.com/kjjuh8n -- ※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc) ◆ From: 180.176.8.233 ※ 編輯: zkow 來自: 180.176.8.233 (08/27 00:32)

08/27 00:40, , 1F
zkow最近你的表現真的讓我不得不推你欸...
08/27 00:40, 1F

08/27 00:41, , 2F
賽陽是比投票不是比數據 考慮太多就失去那種期待感了
08/27 00:41, 2F

08/27 00:51, , 3F
zkow 長大了
08/27 00:51, 3F

08/27 01:04, , 4F
投票的人會看數據啊
08/27 01:04, 4F

08/27 01:10, , 5F
三樓讓我笑了..
08/27 01:10, 5F

08/27 01:17, , 6F
有躲人給推
08/27 01:17, 6F

08/27 01:33, , 7F
Z尻有失水準,懷疑被盜帳號了。
08/27 01:33, 7F

08/27 01:47, , 8F
z現在太棒了
08/27 01:47, 8F

08/27 01:47, , 9F
zkow good
08/27 01:47, 9F

08/27 01:50, , 10F
學長!請容許我 推你
08/27 01:50, 10F

08/27 02:53, , 11F
你可以不要假裝是zkow嗎?
08/27 02:53, 11F

08/27 04:14, , 12F
要不要call中職菇來幫你上上課?
08/27 04:14, 12F

08/27 04:37, , 13F
最後一段那個定義是誰講的 還是這篇作者自己覺得
08/27 04:37, 13F

08/27 05:10, , 14F
因為很多只看ID就噓
08/27 05:10, 14F

08/27 05:24, , 15F
前科太多了被噓剛好, 但改變值得鼓勵
08/27 05:24, 15F

08/27 06:13, , 16F
...
08/27 06:13, 16F

08/27 07:06, , 17F
孩子的學習不能等(誤)
08/27 07:06, 17F

08/27 07:21, , 18F
完全不像z尻 完全不像z尻 完全不像z尻
08/27 07:21, 18F

08/27 07:33, , 19F
不錯喔 要角逐東山再起獎嗎
08/27 07:33, 19F

08/27 08:22, , 20F
完全沒有噓,完全沒有噓!
08/27 08:22, 20F

08/27 08:33, , 21F
XDDD..還考慮打擊..是要讓人怎麼活..都給躲人包就好
08/27 08:33, 21F

08/27 08:45, , 22F
Harvey今年GG了 這話題炒不起來了
08/27 08:45, 22F

08/27 08:52, , 23F
Zkow 大仙...
08/27 08:52, 23F

08/27 09:05, , 24F
說前科太多,那就正好代表你跟本只看ID就噓了
08/27 09:05, 24F

08/27 09:06, , 25F
要嘛....看到ID就不要進來看
08/27 09:06, 25F

08/27 09:06, , 26F
不要看完用一堆似是而非的理由亂噓,或是看ID直接噓
08/27 09:06, 26F

08/27 09:09, , 27F
大家都討論起zkow來了 回到這個題目 我跟作者的結論那段反應
08/27 09:09, 27F

08/27 09:10, , 28F
一樣 我對CY Young的打擊表現毫無概念 對他的印象都是在他的
08/27 09:10, 28F

08/27 09:11, , 29F
投球記錄 雖然棒球講的是整體表現 但就像銀棒是給進攻一樣,
08/27 09:11, 29F

08/27 09:11, , 30F
CYA是給投球的~
08/27 09:11, 30F

08/27 09:40, , 31F
最後一段完全不認同!! 話說一直搞不懂為何要噓zkow
08/27 09:40, 31F

08/27 10:23, , 32F
考慮完打擊要不要考慮守備
08/27 10:23, 32F

08/27 10:54, , 33F
Z尻不賴阿
08/27 10:54, 33F

08/27 10:55, , 34F
最近怪事真不少阿....
08/27 10:55, 34F

08/27 10:58, , 35F
....傻眼
08/27 10:58, 35F

08/27 12:07, , 36F
Z尻有失水準,懷疑被盜帳號了
08/27 12:07, 36F

08/27 12:19, , 37F
就事論事,最近真的蠻不賴
08/27 12:19, 37F

08/27 12:20, , 38F
一直都是zkow阿(茶)
08/27 12:20, 38F

08/27 12:20, , 39F
13926 15479以前就有翻譯文章了
08/27 12:20, 39F

08/27 12:22, , 40F
還請持續提供優文^^ 感激不盡
08/27 12:22, 40F

08/27 12:40, , 41F
翻得很好 可是錯字注意一下 倒數第二段最後一行
08/27 12:40, 41F

08/27 12:41, , 42F
話說Harvey受傷之後 這話題應該也結束了
08/27 12:41, 42F

08/27 13:10, , 43F
不需要
08/27 13:10, 43F

08/27 13:35, , 44F
13926 15479 joanzkow = zkow (V_V)
08/27 13:35, 44F
※ 編輯: zkow 來自: 180.176.8.233 (08/27 13:56)

08/27 14:11, , 45F
以前Z尻被罵是因為資料整理黑箱不是翻譯吧?
08/27 14:11, 45F

08/27 14:22, , 46F
那是另一個z Z尻被罵是因為他專門踩邊緣釣魚
08/27 14:22, 46F

08/27 14:22, , 47F
不過對事不對人 就翻譯來看這幾篇都有些有趣的點
08/27 14:22, 47F

08/27 14:38, , 48F
好扯 這篇噓不下去...
08/27 14:38, 48F

08/27 14:38, , 49F
數據看心情的應該是BR哥.
08/27 14:38, 49F

08/27 14:59, , 50F
考上政大就這樣 我也是從政大畢業就變廢文哥
08/27 14:59, 50F

08/27 15:01, , 51F
之前就PO過翻譯了...
08/27 15:01, 51F

08/27 16:33, , 52F
阿對那是zwchih 抱歉搞錯
08/27 16:33, 52F

08/27 18:34, , 53F
看來三z頭解體了 好感傷
08/27 18:34, 53F

08/27 18:58, , 54F
不用吧
08/27 18:58, 54F

08/27 23:37, , 55F
把ERA+算進去就夠了
08/27 23:37, 55F

08/27 23:39, , 56F
樓上,那本來就是評量投手的數據.........
08/27 23:39, 56F

08/27 23:40, , 57F
我只是回應一下源坡的標題而已
08/27 23:40, 57F

08/28 12:56, , 58F
葛戰神表示: 算投手的打擊成績?
08/28 12:56, 58F

08/28 15:00, , 59F
Cy Young 生涯 oWAR -1.5 (BR). Just saying.
08/28 15:00, 59F

08/30 04:03, , 60F
zkow政大的???
08/30 04:03, 60F
文章代碼(AID): #1I6uBtRi (MLB)
文章代碼(AID): #1I6uBtRi (MLB)