美聯MVP競賽已經結束了

看板MLB (美國職棒/大聯盟)作者時間12年前 (2012/09/24 21:34), 編輯推噓9(352657)
留言118則, 64人參與, 最新討論串1/3 (看更多)
http://tinyurl.com/8nuwomq Hey guys (gender inclusive)? Guys. I hate to interrupt. But listen for a second. Look, I know that Miguel Cabrera is an awesome baseball player, and I know he had a huge game last night, and that he's currently two homers back of Josh Hamilton from being in a position to win the first Triple Crown since 1967 (as I write this, he appears to be about five points up over Trout in the batting race, and six RsBI over Hamilton). That'd be a pretty amazing accomplishment, and I know that it's gotta be tempting to go around touting his MVP credentials. 我知道肥卡布是很了不起的球員 即將挑戰1967年後首次三冠王 (注: 已經達成了) 這是了不起的成就 Here's the thing, though, guys: there's no AL MVP discussion this year. That was canceled. I'm sorry, I thought you'd heard. It's Mike Trout. They made the announcement, like, two months ago. I don't know what rumors you've heard or whatever, but nope, that hasn't changed. It's still off. 但美聯MVP非Mike Trout莫屬 The various Wins Above Replacement measures break it down like this (through Tuesday; they'll tick a bit in Miggy's favor when the numbers are updated tomorrow): WARP fWAR rWAR Miguel Cabrera 5.2 6.3 6.1 Mike Trout 8.0 9.3 10.2 WAR(P) shouldn't be taken as gospel -- any one of them, or even, I guess, in cases like this in which they all strongly point in one direction -- but that's a pretty huge difference. When three very different groups of smart people take smart approaches to trying to assign value to ballplayers and they all come out the same way by a huge margin, if you want to argue that the one they all agree is less valuable is actually more valuable, I think you've got a pretty steep hill to climb. 從WAR可看的出來 Tourt壓倒性的勝利 如果你想辯解說價值低的那位其實更有價值 那恐怕很費功夫 And (as usual), if you take the numbers apart into their components, I think they make a ton of sense. You've got hitting, which is obviously Cabrera's strongest (some might say only) quality. After the huge night last night, Cabrera's hitting .333/.396/.612; Trout is hitting .328/.395/.559. Slight edge to Cabrera based on raw numbers (almost all on slugging percentage), but it turns out that the Big A has been playing as a pitcher's park over the past several years, Comerica as a slight hitter's park, while Trout has also had the cavernous Safeco and whatever-the-hell-they-call-the-Athletics-park-now to contend with. Accordingly, Trout came into Tuesday with the lead in OPS+, 169 to 165; I imagine they're roughly tied today, or that Cabrera moved slightly ahead. (wRC+ probably tells this story better, but that includes other things I want to break out separately.) 打擊上 修正球場效應後 兩人差距不多 OPS+ doesn't capture all of offense, though. It doesn't tell you, for instance, that Cabrera has grounded into 28 double plays, leading the Majors by five, while Trout's had just seven of those. Part of that is opportunity, of course, Trout being a leadoff hitter and all, but it has certainly impacted their values, and a lot of it is the vast difference in speed. That speed has value in other ways, of course. FanGraphs calculates that Trout's baserunning in ways independent of all the stolen bases -- advancing from first to third, avoiding running into outs, etc. -- has been worth 6.1 runs to his team to date, while Cabrera's has cost his team 2.9. Knowing what you know about their abilities -- just about what they look like running the bases -- doesn't that sound right to you, or maybe even a little Miggy-friendly? It sure does to me. Trout的搶壘能力幫天使多拿下6.1分 而Cabrera則倒扣2.9分 Then there are the steals. SB value is bound up in FanGraphs' wOBA calculation, but extrapolating from the wOBA formula, it looks like Trout's incredible 46steals at a 92% success rate has added about 9.5 runs, while Cabrera's 4-for-5 has added a half run. Doesn't that seem about right, too, intuitively? SBs get derided a lot (and rightly so, I think), but if you do it a lot and are almost never caught, you're certainly creating more runs. This suggests that for about every five steals, factoring in those four CSes, Trout's gotten the Angels an extra run they wouldn't have had if he stayed put. I'd buy that. Trout的盜壘多拿下9.5分 Cabrera 0.5分 Then of course there's defense. Cabrera has been less of a disaster than I thought he'd be at third base, but he's been bad. The metrics disagree on how bad -- BP says -3.4 runs, Baseball Reference -4, FanGraphs -9.4. They similarly agree that Trout has been phenomenal in the outfield, and disagree wildly on how much: BP +4.6, B-Ref +25(!), FG +13. Cabrera then gets a run and a half back, somewhat surprisingly, because CF and 3B are viewed as of equal importance, and Trout has spent more time at the less important LF than Cabrera has at the much less important DH and 1B. Taking the averages of the fielding metrics, because why not, Cabrera has cost his team 5.6 runs, Trout has given his 14.2. Even with the positional adjustment, that's an 18.3-run advantage for Trout. Trout防守完爆Cabrera 修正守位後兩人的手套差距有18.3分 If you think Cabrera deserves the MVP, and think you can argue that the systems and I are way off on any one of those factors (not just that we can't be 100% certain about the exact numbers, but that it's seriously off for some reason), please do. Otherwise, that's what we've got: they've been essentially equal with bats in their hands, and Trout has been much, much better in every other aspect. The baserunning, basestealing and defense alone adds up to about a 36-run advantage for Trout; I think the GIDPs could add another ten or more, but I'm frankly undecided about how to handle that, so I won't (I don't think it's necessary). 36 runs is a huge number; WAR says, for example, that Prince Fielder, who has been really, really good, has been worth about that much over the course of the entire season vis-a-vis a random replacement-level player. So, basically: Mike Trout has been one whole Prince Fielder better than Miguel Cabrera. Trout比Cabrera好上36分 (還沒加上雙殺打的差距) 36分有多少? 大概就是一個Prince Fielder那麼大 簡單來說 Trout = Cabrera+Fielder Well, almost. Of course, Cabrera has played all but one of his team's games, while Trout (thanks mostly to his late call-up) has missed 22 of the Angels'. That certainly has value...but not even close to 36 runs of value, which would be 1.7 runs for each extra game played. Nobody's ever done that, ever (the all-time single season runs created leader is Barry Bonds, whose 230 in 2001 came out to 1.5 per game played). Cabrera clearly gets a slight advantage with the bat, based almost entirely on playing time (as evidenced by the fact that B-Ref's and FanGraphs' batting runs for the two players are roughly even, despite including stolen bases). But they certainly don't think Cabrera's playing time has pushed him that far ahead. You can disagree, but you've got a lot of arguing and proving stuff to do. It's very hard for me to see an argument that puts Cabrera ahead of Trout, or even particularly close. 怎麼看Trout都完勝Cabrera 連接近都說不上 So then what else is there? Winning the Triple Crown would be awesome, but it can't be used to somehow increase Cabrera's value. I assume for these purposes that most people reading this understand why the batting average and RBI themselves don't actually add value, but worth noting: (a) per Baseball Reference (see here and here) the park-adjusted league batting average is .247 for Trout and .259 for Cabrera; and (b) the RBI, as usual, are mostly a function of opportunity -- per this, while Cabrera's having driven in 20.3% of the runners on base for him is good for 3rd in the AL, Trout's 18.3% is 14th (and very close to 10th). Most of the difference is that Cabrera has batted with 136 more runners on base than Trout has, including 71 more in scoring position. Also worth noting, if you're caring about those stats, is that Trout has scored 18 more runs in those 21 fewer games. 三冠王是很了不起的成就 但這頭銜並不能增加Cabrera的價值 And that's about it. If you care about whether or not the MVP comes from a contending team (which you shouldn't at all, but now is really not the time), that's a push (Coolstandings gives both teams between a 21% and 23% chance of making the postseason; BPro gives the Tigers 21% and the Angels 29%). I can't think of anything else (if you want to argue leadership or something like that, knock yourself out, you're on your own). It all comes down to Cabrera having really pretty, and potentially historically interesting, raw batting numbers, and Tigers fans being very vocal and protective of their guys. That's all there is. Trout's still running away with this thing. 兩隊季後賽機會也差不多 So, again, sorry guys. I know we're used to having these discussions at this time of year. And we've still got a lot of great talk out there for you to enjoy -- the NL MVP is pretty wide open, for instance, and both Cy Youngs, and we're still technically open for the NL ROY (it's totally Harper's, but we'll hear you out). The AL MVP and ROY are closed up for the season, though. Nothing to see here. Hey, try again next year! 國聯MVP還有的戰 兩個賽揚獎也是 國聯ROY也可以討論 但美聯MVP和ROY競爭已經結束了 大家明年見 -- ※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc) ◆ From: 140.112.25.133

09/24 21:41, , 1F
Trout 新人王 胖卡 MVP Price 賽揚獎
09/24 21:41, 1F

09/24 21:42, , 2F
整天找捧Trout的聞不累嗎0.0
09/24 21:42, 2F

09/24 21:43, , 3F
上面有一篇差不多的...米糕 MVP啦!
09/24 21:43, 3F

09/24 21:43, , 4F
Harper 新人王 Ryan MVP GIO 賽揚獎
09/24 21:43, 4F

09/24 21:43, , 5F
Trout等於米糕+肥王子會不會太誇張
09/24 21:43, 5F

09/24 21:45, , 6F
捧卡布的新聞不太好找 幾乎都底特律媒體
09/24 21:45, 6F

09/24 21:46, , 7F
怎麼感覺一堆宣傳戰.... XDDDD
09/24 21:46, 7F

09/24 21:47, , 8F
Trout形象好 而且攻守俱佳 又是紐澤西人 很正常
09/24 21:47, 8F

09/24 21:47, , 9F
找一堆貶Cabrera捧Trout的文章是想引戰嗎?
09/24 21:47, 9F

09/24 21:47, , 10F
米糕去年還因為酒駕失言...
09/24 21:47, 10F

09/24 21:47, , 11F
不過以過去的經驗看來MVP還是米糕勝算比較大
09/24 21:47, 11F

09/24 21:48, , 12F
你在大聲什麼啦!
09/24 21:48, 12F

09/24 21:48, , 13F
米糕!!!!!!!!!!
09/24 21:48, 13F

09/24 21:49, , 14F
上面那個笑笑就好 別當真 不過我覺得這些人講太早了
09/24 21:49, 14F

09/24 21:49, , 15F
戰超大
09/24 21:49, 15F

09/24 21:49, , 16F
很期待米糕到時候打一輪這些人的巴掌
09/24 21:49, 16F

09/24 21:50, , 17F
Trout = Cabrera+Fielder 呵呵
09/24 21:50, 17F

09/24 21:50, , 18F
剛看去年mvp討論,也沒多少人拿war來說,
09/24 21:50, 18F

09/24 21:53, , 19F
因為去年Verlander在WAR上根本是名列前茅
09/24 21:53, 19F

09/24 21:53, , 20F
唯一贏他的叫做Zobrist (BR版)
09/24 21:53, 20F

09/24 21:53, , 21F
而且兩人差距很有限
09/24 21:53, 21F

09/24 21:53, , 22F
拿個三冠王 錯了嗎?
09/24 21:53, 22F

09/24 21:54, , 23F
看war比的那麼爽 你也要看看人家投票的看不看這數據
09/24 21:54, 23F

09/24 21:54, , 24F
這些人選有人球隊進季後賽的嗎??
09/24 21:54, 24F

09/24 21:56, , 25F
怎一直出現捧Trout文啊= =
09/24 21:56, 25F

09/24 21:56, , 26F
去年Zoby WAR竟然有這麼高啊,那他怎麼連前十名都沒份XDD
09/24 21:56, 26F

09/24 21:57, , 27F
那去年Braun vs Kemp vs Upton 有人比過war?
09/24 21:57, 27F

09/24 21:57, , 28F
投票的人會仔細去計算這個嗎?
09/24 21:57, 28F

09/24 21:58, , 29F
今年Zobrist也貢獻滿大的
09/24 21:58, 29F

09/24 21:58, , 30F
因為同個人貼的 習慣就好
09/24 21:58, 30F

09/24 21:59, , 31F
搞得好像WAR異常重要 事實上是傳統AVG RBI 老美更喜歡HR
09/24 21:59, 31F

09/24 21:59, , 32F
各位想入鱒魚教的信徒 入會請早! 謝謝!
09/24 21:59, 32F

09/24 22:00, , 33F
我還以為abc大聽過什麼叫作物即必反 你一天貼兩篇這種文
09/24 22:00, 33F

09/24 22:00, , 34F
下個月就被打臉了拉 米糕穩拿
09/24 22:00, 34F

09/24 22:01, , 35F
結果都沒進季後賽 基特拿MVP
09/24 22:01, 35F

09/24 22:01, , 36F
Zobrist的WAR也很威...不過這幾年MVP討論跟本沒人鳥他..XD
09/24 22:01, 36F

09/24 22:01, , 37F
極* 什麼意思呢?是要說你本身的立場 還是想讓我們對鳟
09/24 22:01, 37F

09/24 22:01, , 38F
魚徹底反感呢?還是說米糕哪裡惹到您?
09/24 22:01, 38F

09/24 22:01, , 39F
#1EWn0mBg 去年NL WAR 比較 Kemp 9.8 Braun 7.7
09/24 22:01, 39F
還有 39 則推文
09/24 22:58, , 79F
THE AUTHOR "BILL" IS HOLY BULLSHIT
09/24 22:58, 79F

09/24 22:59, , 80F
Bill you will go to hell Bill sucks fuck u
09/24 22:59, 80F

09/24 23:00, , 81F
被水桶我他媽也要罵這個垃圾人渣原作者 幹
09/24 23:00, 81F

09/24 23:02, , 82F
三冠王拿不到MVP有前例阿 其中兩個還是神獸
09/24 23:02, 82F

09/24 23:03, , 83F
馬上水桶,等會公告。
09/24 23:03, 83F

09/24 23:04, , 84F
會這樣支持米糕 那不是因為成績 而是因為愛
09/24 23:04, 84F

09/24 23:04, , 85F
因為對米糕的偏愛所以才會如此偏執
09/24 23:04, 85F

09/24 23:06, , 86F
對兩人都沒啥愛的人來說,其實就是伯仲之間,鱒魚還
09/24 23:06, 86F

09/24 23:07, , 87F
比較有優勢呢! 會狂支持米糕,是因為他算過去遺珠吧
09/24 23:07, 87F

09/24 23:10, , 88F
Tourt?
09/24 23:10, 88F

09/24 23:10, , 89F
Ted沒拿到跟成績可說幾乎無關好麼= =
09/24 23:10, 89F

09/24 23:11, , 90F
WAR>10沒拿到MVP亦有前例 而且還不少
09/24 23:11, 90F

09/24 23:12, , 91F
20世紀後打出三冠王的全都進名人堂了
09/24 23:12, 91F

09/24 23:15, , 92F
結果這篇最後還是釣到一堆人 哈哈哈
09/24 23:15, 92F

09/24 23:16, , 93F
所以說BBWAA這組織我搞出啥結果我實在都不意外阿XD
09/24 23:16, 93F

09/24 23:18, , 94F
越捧只會越反感= =
09/24 23:18, 94F

09/24 23:19, , 95F
進名人堂跟單一年度MVP意義差很多吧=.=
09/24 23:19, 95F

09/24 23:28, , 96F
如果Trout第一年的HR=米糕+王子的生涯HR數我就認同
09/24 23:28, 96F

09/24 23:29, , 97F
Trout = Miguel + Prince 這句話
09/24 23:29, 97F

09/24 23:29, , 98F
我覺得MVP應該給TROUT 考慮到守位這種成績
09/24 23:29, 98F

09/24 23:30, , 99F
現在不流行看守位吧 一堆人看到三冠王就嗨了 守位算啥
09/24 23:30, 99F

09/24 23:50, , 100F
引戰不膩喔
09/24 23:50, 100F

09/24 23:54, , 101F
推lucky70121 太勇敢了XDDD
09/24 23:54, 101F

09/24 23:57, , 102F
(  ̄□ ̄)/喔~~喔喔~~喔喔~~喔喔~爪爪
09/24 23:57, 102F

09/25 00:23, , 103F
我還是挺米糕!!
09/25 00:23, 103F

09/25 00:37, , 104F
三冠王很難拿 給三冠王吧:)個人覺得
09/25 00:37, 104F

09/25 00:54, , 105F
MVP是投票 這篇完全就用數據分勝負 想必是沒投票資格
09/25 00:54, 105F

09/25 01:10, , 106F
abc一直貼搞得我以為是反串 存心要搞臭Trout喔 XDDDDDD
09/25 01:10, 106F

09/25 02:43, , 107F
09/25 02:43, 107F

09/25 05:31, , 108F
樽來瘋?
09/25 05:31, 108F

09/25 05:31, , 109F
美國人也是有一堆瘋狂愛造神的 原來不止台灣
09/25 05:31, 109F

09/25 12:56, , 110F
看到Trout=米糕+肥王子 都笑了
09/25 12:56, 110F

09/25 13:02, , 111F
真的 Trout=Miguel + Prince 這主話也講得出來 哈
09/25 13:02, 111F

09/25 13:03, , 112F
09/25 13:03, 112F

09/25 14:22, , 113F
蠻有理的除了那句Trout=Miguel + Prince,老虎沒這兩隻根
09/25 14:22, 113F

09/25 14:24, , 114F
本難以得分,哪是一個Trout能抵得過的,至少要連兩隻Trout
09/25 14:24, 114F

09/25 14:30, , 115F
兩隻鱒魚要在壘上威脅較大,胖虎連線光在打擊區就很有威脅
09/25 14:30, 115F

09/25 20:06, , 116F
@oiyuz 就算要打臉也不是下個月 應該是11月
09/25 20:06, 116F

09/25 20:07, , 117F
但這篇作者真的太引戰了 XDDDD
09/25 20:07, 117F

09/28 04:26, , 118F
這篇真的捧得太誇張了= =
09/28 04:26, 118F
文章代碼(AID): #1GO65JQP (MLB)
文章代碼(AID): #1GO65JQP (MLB)