PTT體育區 / CMWang (王建民 - 大樹哥)

Re: [外電] Wang-o-Rama: All Hail the King?

看板CMWang (王建民 - 大樹哥)作者 (FBI胖熊旅店)時間18年前 (2007/09/05 22:49), 編輯推噓41(41推 0噓 51→)
留言92則, 41人參與, 最新討論串13/35 (看更多)
雖然慢了點，不過要戰得漂亮、戰得痛快，總是前後文一目了然比較方便 所以我就把它翻出來了 請指教 ==== http://eastwindupchronicle.com/?p=45 Wang Chien-Ming is the king of Taiwan. 王建民是台灣之王 Wang, whose name literally means ‘king’ in Chinese, is Taiwan’s most revered and loved celebrity. The New York Yankees’ #1 starter is the first Taiwanese celebrity to achieve widespread international recognition (with the possible exception of filmmaker Ang Li, Madame Chiang Kai Shek and actress/Penthouse centerfold Hsu Chi), and a source of national pride every time he takes the hill for the storied New York Yankees. 王，這個姓氏在中文字面上的意義就是「王」(king)。王建民是台灣人最愛的名人。這名 紐約洋基隊的一號先發投手是第一個廣泛獲得國際認同的台灣名人（也許有幾個例外，如 李安、蔣夫人、舒淇）。每次他出賽時，他都是國家的驕傲。 And what’s not to love about a player that has emerged as the ace of the world’s most successful baseball franchise, finished second in the AL Cy Young voting to Johan Santana in 2006, starts charities to benefit underprivileged kids in his free time, and has even had the courage to boycott the bloodthirsty and reckless Taiwanese media since moving to New York? 怎麼可能不愛上這麼棒的人呢？他成為世界上最成功的棒球勁旅的王牌，去年獲得賽洋獎 第二名、僅次於Johan Santana, 閒暇時發起慈善活動幫助弱勢兒童，甚至在搬到紐約後 仍有勇氣杯葛嗜血又粗魯的台灣媒體。 Owing to his unusually composed demeanor, seemingly incorruptible personality on an island notorious for political corruption, and celebrity cache (that gives Taiwan the rare occasion to stick it China as the mainland siphons off its jobs and challenges its statehood), Wang takes center stage on a daily basis on the TV and in the papers. As a result, without a costly mlb.com package, baseball fans on the island have to get used to the following order of priorities: Wang Chien Ming first, The Yankees second, and baseball third. 由於他不尋常的君子風度、似乎完美無瑕的人格，在台灣這座以政治貪污與公眾人物的醜 聞（這給了台灣一個與不斷吸取其工作機會甚至動搖其國本的中國大陸並駕齊驅的罕見機 會）而惡名昭彰的島上，王建民每天都出現在電視與報紙的主要版面。而沒有訂購昂貴的 mlb.com 的台灣球迷就必須要適應這種優先順序：王建民第一、洋基第二、棒球第三。 Wang fever in Taiwan can reach absurd levels. ESPN in Taiwan re-runs every game he pitches in 4 or 5 times in a week, while remaining Yankee games broadcast two to three times a day while the vast majority of MLB games go untelevised. For fans on the island interested in the bigger picture of the game, pennant races, or teams outside of the AL East, it can get vexing watching the Taiwanese media lavish more attention on a single start from Wang (or Wang having a conversation with Ron Guidry in the dugout) than it does on, say, Barry Bonds breaking the all-time home run record. Save for the occasional Red Sox game featuring Matsuzaka, or a even rarer Dodgers game where Hong Chih Kuo invariably gets lit up, Yankees games are by and large the only exposure fans get to MLB. 台灣的王建民熱已經達到荒謬的程度了。這裡的ESPN每週重播王建民的出賽四到五次，同 時每天放送洋基的比賽兩三次，而其餘大部分的大聯盟比賽根本不見蹤影。台灣的棒球迷 如果關心更廣一些的主題，如分區王座之爭、或美聯東區以外的球隊，他們會非常頭痛， 因為他們看到台灣媒體揮霍大量的資源在王建民的單一出賽、甚至他和Ron Guidry在休息 區講了什麼話中，卻不關心他們關心的事情，如Barry Bonds所追逐的全壘打記錄。台灣 媒體省去了偶爾才一次的松坂大輔的出賽、甚至省去了更少見的郭泓志總是上場放火的 出賽，卻讓球迷基本上暴露於全洋基的環境中。 One can well imagine the stunned silence, general confusion, and silent facial contortions of protest (as well as nasty emails) I get from Taiwanese baseball fans when I make the following outrageous claims: Wang at this stage of his career makes a very good #2 pitcher for a successful rotation but has not yet developed the qualities of a true staff ace, the jury is still out on his long term value, and the oft-cheerleading media and fans have jumped the gun a bit by placing Wang in the top tier of starting pitchers in MLB. I also get jeers when I suggest that fans in Taiwan, due 24/7 exposure in the media, conflate Wang’s historical and cultural importance with his actual talents on the field. Wang’s demeanor, high winning percentage, and league-best sinker certainly give him the potential to be mentioned in the same breath with Webb, Sabathia, and Johan, but he’s not there. Not yet. 你可以想像這個畫面：因震驚而沈默、普遍的困惑、顏面扭曲所表達的無言抗議，以及下 流的電子郵件；這是我提到以下犯眾怒的意見時從台灣棒球迷獲得的反應。我認為王建民 現階段在一個健全的先發輪值中會是個很好的二號先發投手、但還沒有開發出貨真價實的 王牌所需要的實力。他的長期價值還有待觀察，而總是擔任王建民啦啦隊的媒體與球迷在 宣稱他已經是全大聯盟最頂尖先發選手這件事上稍微搶拍了些。當我說台灣人因為受媒 體二十四小時的資訊轟炸的影響而將王建民的歷史文化地位與球場上的實際表現混為一 談時，也飽受奚落。王建民的風度、高勝率及傲視大聯盟的沈球或許讓他有潛力跟Webb, Sabathia, Johan相提並論，但他現在還不是這種貨色。 Naysayer! Cynic! Playa Hater! (being pelted with stinky tofu) 專門唱反調！犬儒！見不得人好！（被臭豆腐砸中） First off, a fair assessment of Wang’s ability has to point to stats beyond his W-L record. Wang’s win totals are highly inflated due to an inordinate amount of run support—nearly 7 runs per game (6.8)—and excellent defensive support (The Yankee defense behind Wang, didn’t allow an unearned run in 47 consecutive innings, the longest such streak for a Yankee pitcher since the Elias Sports Bureau began tracking the stat in 1913). Every time Wang takes the hill the Yanks spot him 7 runs and never make any errors. This is a recipe for putting up a lot of wins regardless of who is on the mound. 首先，若要公正地評價王建民，不能只看勝場--敗場紀錄。王建民的勝場數被放大了，因 為不尋常的大量得分支援（一場6.8分）及完美的防守支援（王建民連續47局未出現非自 責分，這是Elias Sports Bureau從1913年開始計算這項數據以來洋基球員中的新高） 。每次他走上投手丘，隊友就奉送七分以及零失誤—這是一份能讓人鯨吞勝場數的食譜 ，不管投球的是誰。 Or, to quote a Seattle Mariners scout in Taiwan who tried to sign Wang before he ended up on the Yankees, “take Wang off the Yankees and put him on a weak-hitting team, and he’s a .500 pitcher”. 或者我們引用一句曾企圖簽下王建民的西雅圖水手隊的球探所說的話：把他放到一個鳥打 隊，他的勝率會只剩下50％。 Wang has other attributes that suggest that some of the fawning over his performance thus far might not be warranted yet. This year, left-handed hitters are hitting .283 against him. Since the All-Star break this year, Wang the king has put up a respectable 7-2 record, but has an average E.R.A. (4.50) and hitters are opposing hitters are hitting .296. Due to his high ground ball percentage, a lot of these runs get cancelled out in double plays, but putting that many runners on base could be a recipe for trouble come playoff time. 王建民還有其他的因素讓我們推斷，有些對他目前為止表現的溢美並不是理所當然的。今 年左打者對他的打擊率是.283。全明星賽後，雖然王建民有可觀的七勝二負戰績，但他的 ERA是4.5，只有平均值，且打者對他的打擊率是.296。他的高滾球率能製造雙殺而少失很 多分；但把這麼多跑者放上壘包在季後賽時會造成大麻煩， In fact, Wang’s stats this year are eerily similar to those put up by Greg Maddux at age 41, whom most statisticians and fans would describe as having a decent but unspectacular season in the twilight of his career. Maddux is regarded as the Padres #3 starter, certainly not their ace at this point. While it might not be the only factor in the equation, the extra 2 runs per game Wang receives in run support from the Bronx Bomber offense surely plays a big part in the 6 game difference in the win column: 事實上，王建民本季的數據非常相似於Greg Maddux本季以41歲高齡投出的成績，而多數 統計學者和球迷都同意這是他生涯尾端的穩定但並不特別出色的一季。Maddux在教士隊中 是三號投手，很明顯不是他們的王牌。雖然可能有其他因素的影響，但砲火連天的洋基打 者們給王建民的火力支援當然在他與Maddux的六場勝場差距中扮演要角。 Wang 166.1IP, 16 wins, 6 losses, 3.79 ERA, 86 K’s, 45BB’s, 1.27 WHIP Maddux 168.2IP, 10 wins, 9 losses, 3.79 ERA, 89 K’s, 21BB’s, 1.20 WHIP (數據簡稱就不翻了) That’s not to say Wang doesn’t have the capability to be a true ace, in fact, he’s nearly there. With the league’s best sinker that Yankees pitching coach Ron Guidry compares to trying to hit a shot put, and a 96 MPH heater, there’s no denying the talent is in place. He’s young, he’s already won a ton of games, and has room to grow. But he’s not all the way there yet, and often times this gets lost in the shuffle as the Taiwanese media clamors to put up yet another full-page spread singing his praises. 這不是說王建民沒有擔當王牌的能力；事實上，他已經快要是了。他擁有洋基投教Ron Guidry比擬為「好像讓打者去打鉛球」的全聯盟最好的沈球，還有96英哩的速球，我們必 須承認他的天分是夠的。他還年輕，他已經贏了成打的比賽，並還有成長的空間；但他現 在還沒達到那種境界。每當台灣媒體喧鬧著鋪陳出另一個全版新聞來歌頌王建民的偉大時 ，這點總是隱沒在一陣混亂之中。 __________________ More important than these statistical comparisons, the Taiwanese media, notorious for fabricating news stories and desperate to sensationalize anything they can in order to gain ratings–more than the unassuming Wang himself– can be blamed for the premature overhyping of the man of the hour. In Wang you have a highly marketable, good looking, reputable celebrity that’ s tailor made to sell papers and merchandise. 比這些數據更重要的是，因新聞造假、唯恐天下不亂來爭取閱聽率而惡名昭彰的台灣媒體 ，應該要為過於倉促又過度興奮地吹捧王建民而受譴責。畢竟在他們眼中，王建民只是一 個具有高度市場價值、帥氣、聲譽卓著的金雞母，是為他們的銷售量和廣告主所量身訂造 的。 But in the end, Taiwanese baseball fans, who might care more about the game itself with exposure to different teams, lose out in the end due to the disproportionate amount of airtime lavished upon Wang at this early stage in his career. They almost never get to see NL teams. They don’t get to see Pujols, Santana, Hanley, or even Bonds. This deprives them of the joy of seeing all the game’s stars, the thrill of pennant races, the ability to view baseball from a more objective perspective, and the perspective to see Wang within the greater overall context of the game. 但到頭來，台灣球迷們在接觸不同的隊伍後，也許會更關心棒球這項運動本身，並發現自 己挹注過多關注在王建民的早期生涯到浪費的程度而若有所失。他們幾乎從沒有機會看看 國家聯盟的隊伍。他們沒有機會看看Pujols, Santana, Hanley, 甚至Bonds。這剝奪了他 們觀賞眾多明星的樂趣，體驗分區王座之戰的刺激，從更客觀角度審視棒球的能力，還有 從更宏觀的脈絡中檢視王建民的觀點。 Because of Wang’s success in pinstripes, Taiwanese fans have almost without exception embraced the Yankees as their favorite team. From an overall standpoint, if what matters to Taiwanese fans is that Wang has put Taiwan on the map and given them something to cheer for after a long day at the factory, that’s great. 因為王建民穿著條紋衣，台灣球迷幾乎沒有例外地投入洋基隊的懷抱。從整體的角度而言 ，如果台灣球迷所關心的就是：王建民讓台灣在世界地圖上更顯眼、並讓他們在工廠忙碌 工作一整天之後有個理由來歡呼；那麼這也許是很棒的。 -- ※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc) ◆ From: 125.226.33.241
→
09/05 22:51, , 1F
先用王打台灣社會再批王不夠好=>台灣人民的愚昧崇拜
09/05 22:51, 1F
→
09/05 22:54, , 2F
好奇作者背景
09/05 22:54, 2F
→
09/05 22:54, , 3F
( ︶︿︶)_╭∩╮ 愚昧崇拜=/=民族英雄
09/05 22:54, 3F
推
09/05 22:53, , 4F
這篇其實還蠻中肯..只是加了美式諷刺幽默才不合鄉民胃口XD
09/05 22:53, 4F
→
09/05 22:55, , 5F
可以看的出來作者很愛棒球.且希望台灣人也能更懂棒球樂趣
09/05 22:55, 5F
推
09/05 22:56, , 6F
無言以對...我想討厭洋基隊吧..肯定...喜好無法更改...更~~
09/05 22:56, 6F
推
09/05 22:58, , 7F
看了全文詳翻，再看看前面的戰文 XD
09/05 22:58, 7F
推
09/05 23:00, , 8F
Maddux在海盜隊???是翻錯還是我的誤解???
09/05 23:00, 8F
推
09/05 23:01, , 9F
我也剛剛發現...是翻錯...馬上改
09/05 23:01, 9F
※ 編輯: FatBearInn 來自: 125.226.33.241 (09/05 23:02)
→
09/05 23:02, , 10F
蓋到一個推文，sorry
09/05 23:02, 10F
→
09/05 23:02, , 11F
現在挑起鄉民怒火了...一切都來不及了~~
09/05 23:02, 11F
→
09/05 23:03, , 12F
18186的作者加註的感想文毀了這篇優文~~ 我的推文被蓋到
09/05 23:03, 12F
推
09/05 23:04, , 13F
老實說看完完整翻譯後,的確有點火大了.....XDDDDDD
09/05 23:04, 13F
推
09/05 23:04, , 14F
推
09/05 23:04, 14F
推
09/05 23:05, , 15F
這跟那篇感覺有許多差距阿 = =
09/05 23:05, 15F
→
09/05 23:07, , 16F
嗯 不過是一篇普通的blog 幹嘛反應這麼大
09/05 23:07, 16F
推
09/05 23:08, , 17F
這大概要花一點時間才能翻成這樣，偶自刪好了哈哈
09/05 23:08, 17F
推
09/05 23:10, , 18F
樓上的 來不及拉~~ 至少留個全屍給人比對為啥大家會反應大
09/05 23:10, 18F
推
09/05 23:10, , 19F
18194篇超帥的阿
09/05 23:10, 19F
推
09/05 23:10, , 20F
比較贊同本版17645篇的分析 隊友高得分對主要是影響小王逃敗
09/05 23:10, 20F
→
09/05 23:12, , 21F
而且郭泓志先發台灣也都有播啊 跟小王同天還雙螢幕播勒
09/05 23:12, 21F
推
09/05 23:13, , 22F
其實這篇說得真的很中肯，而且也沒有貶低王的意思，甚至看好
09/05 23:13, 22F
→
09/05 23:13, , 23F
王的潛力。台媒的拍馬屁同樣也令人作噁。
09/05 23:13, 23F
→
09/05 23:15, , 24F
這篇作者用RS來解釋小王那段根本就是錯誤 還有台灣哪時
09/05 23:15, 24F
→
09/05 23:16, , 25F
沒播郭泓志了??
09/05 23:16, 25F
→
09/05 23:18, , 26F
隊友零失誤更是胡扯 連續局數未有非自責失分只能說小王
09/05 23:18, 26F
推
09/05 23:17, , 27F
看到王無非自責分=隊友零失誤這裡,很想吐血...什麼鬼結論???
09/05 23:17, 27F
→
09/05 23:19, , 28F
的危機處理能力還不錯 不會受到隊友失誤影響 哪有每次小王
09/05 23:19, 28F
→
09/05 23:20, , 29F
又發現一個錯 我改一下
09/05 23:20, 29F
※ 編輯: FatBearInn 來自: 125.226.33.241 (09/05 23:21)
→
09/05 23:22, , 30F
又蓋到一個推文...sorry
09/05 23:22, 30F
→
09/05 23:22, , 31F
上來投就守備爆氣的 這不就是在隱喻小王強運嗎??
09/05 23:22, 31F
推
09/05 23:23, , 32F
推完整且用心的翻譯
09/05 23:23, 32F
推
09/05 23:23, , 33F
王的確不是強運 運氣比起其他防禦率差不多的投手 的確
09/05 23:23, 33F
→
09/05 23:24, , 34F
比較幸運
09/05 23:24, 34F
→
09/05 23:24, , 35F
如果作者說敗場被縮小 也就是隊友的高RS幫小王逃敗這OK
09/05 23:24, 35F
→
09/05 23:25, , 36F
可是說勝場被放大 這很難讓人信服
09/05 23:25, 36F
→
09/05 23:29, , 37F
詳細請看17645篇的分析 懶的再解釋了
09/05 23:29, 37F
推
09/05 23:29, , 38F
推翻譯噓原作者，他希望別人從他的角度看事情，卻不肯試
09/05 23:29, 38F
→
09/05 23:31, , 39F
著從別人的角度看事情
09/05 23:31, 39F
推
09/05 23:33, , 40F
幸運了
09/05 23:33, 40F
→
09/05 23:33, , 41F
去比一下防禦率比王低或差不多的QS勝場數 就知道王比較
09/05 23:33, 41F
→
09/05 23:34, , 42F
若你說王勝場ERA很低我能告訴你老衛勝場ERA也只有2.4
09/05 23:34, 42F
推
09/05 23:37, , 43F
在無非自責分那邊的意思解釋錯誤，很難認為本文作者對棒球
09/05 23:37, 43F
→
09/05 23:38, , 44F
真的如他自己認為的那麼專精？ 不是隊友不失誤，而是投手
09/05 23:38, 44F
→
09/05 23:40, , 45F
不受隊友失誤後所影響吧。ex：老克
09/05 23:40, 45F
推
09/05 23:41, , 46F
推翻譯…辛苦了～
09/05 23:41, 46F
→
09/05 23:42, , 47F
所以U兄想表達的是老魏很強運??
09/05 23:42, 47F
→
09/05 23:51, , 48F
只比較QS勝場 怎不比較吃的局數勒
09/05 23:51, 48F
推
09/05 23:55, , 49F
講的很中肯 而且的確點出全台瘋王表象下的詭異風氣
09/05 23:55, 49F
→
09/05 23:58, , 50F
而且洋基今年最酷的戲碼就是分數常在後半段打
09/05 23:58, 50F
→
09/06 00:00, , 51F
而且讓ERA爆高的投手變成賽揚級 這種情況下會好投???
09/06 00:00, 51F
推
09/06 00:00, , 52F
作者一定沒啥在看王的比賽用RS來判斷王每一場都因為可以
09/06 00:00, 52F
→
09/06 00:02, , 53F
有七分的優勢讓他得到這麼多勝 再加無非自責分判斷洋基ꐠ
09/06 00:02, 53F
→
09/06 00:04, , 54F
守備的完美(...完美?) 基本上隊友的失誤是因為王有壓下ꠠ
09/06 00:04, 54F
→
09/06 00:04, , 55F
如果是1~6局各得一分 跟一直鴨蛋到第六局一口氣拿六分
09/06 00:04, 55F
→
09/06 00:05, , 56F
來而造成無非自責分 反正他只會用它狹隘的角度看台灣
09/06 00:05, 56F
→
09/06 00:05, , 57F
有誰會覺得後者會比較好投呢? 更不要說肩膀冷掉的問題了
09/06 00:05, 57F
→
09/06 00:06, , 58F
只抱著數據不看比賽不會比較優質
09/06 00:06, 58F
推
09/06 00:07, , 59F
我舉出勝投era是跟你提的文章有關
09/06 00:07, 59F
→
09/06 00:08, , 60F
不看比賽？ 其他賽楊投手候選人的比賽你看過沒？
09/06 00:08, 60F
→
09/06 00:09, , 61F
至少我有再看
09/06 00:09, 61F
→
09/06 00:09, , 62F
把其他投手數據當屁? 好笑的論點
09/06 00:09, 62F
→
09/06 00:14, , 63F
懶的理你 你要繼續抱持著"強運王"的言論隨便你
09/06 00:14, 63F
→
09/06 00:16, , 64F
沒有人把其他投手數據當屁 倒是你把別人的討論文當屁
09/06 00:16, 64F
→
09/06 00:17, , 65F
倒是真的 既然都不看 那何來討論?
09/06 00:17, 65F
推
09/06 00:22, , 66F
推翻譯，至於作者，自己為中肯卻充滿無知的偏見
09/06 00:22, 66F
推
09/06 00:24, , 67F
水手球探 = = 自己球隊打不到王的球就酸...腦殘....
09/06 00:24, 67F
推
09/06 00:55, , 68F
好文 寫得很中肯
09/06 00:55, 68F
推
09/06 01:13, , 69F
中肯　應該給ESPN看看
09/06 01:13, 69F
推
09/06 02:02, , 70F
寫得好！翻得好！可惜國內媒體大概沒興趣，不過真的棒！
09/06 02:02, 70F
推
09/06 03:02, , 71F
不如把他心目中的ace抓來yans投投看是不是真的ace吧
09/06 03:02, 71F
推
09/06 06:39, , 72F
別隊ace轉來洋基就崩盤的例子太多了
09/06 06:39, 72F
→
09/06 08:34, , 73F
除了偶爾有松坂主投的紅襪比賽 還有更少見但小小郭每上必爆
09/06 08:34, 73F
→
09/06 08:38, , 74F
的道奇比賽(後略) 原文裡哪有什麼精采可期?
09/06 08:38, 74F
推
09/06 09:55, , 75F
其實滿中肯的= =
09/06 09:55, 75F
推
09/06 10:37, , 76F
超中肯的阿 這作者對台灣真的還蠻了解的..
09/06 10:37, 76F
→
09/06 10:38, , 77F
尤其是提到台灣棒球迷的反應那段...
09/06 10:38, 77F
推
09/06 10:50, , 78F
其實真的很中肯耶...我只能說是之前的翻譯害了他
09/06 10:50, 78F
→
09/06 10:50, , 79F
而且外國人還能對台灣媒體這麼瞭解 推
09/06 10:50, 79F
推
09/06 11:19, , 80F
Tzetze, 那段我是看著get lit up 猜意思的...
09/06 11:19, 80F
→
09/06 11:20, , 81F
所以其實那是被爆掉的意思囉?
09/06 11:20, 81F
推
09/06 11:53, , 82F
中肯
09/06 11:53, 82F
推
09/06 13:05, , 83F
我說比較其他防禦率低或差不多的投手較幸運 你就扯我
09/06 13:05, 83F
→
09/06 13:05, , 84F
說王是強運王
09/06 13:05, 84F
→
09/06 14:55, , 85F
get lit up確實是被爆的意思
09/06 14:55, 85F
※ dotZu:轉錄至看板 media-chaos 09/06 17:42
推
09/06 17:55, , 86F
FatBearInn翻得真好,這篇論述十分客觀 MLB不是只有Yankee隊
09/06 17:55, 86F
推
09/06 18:34, , 87F
老實說很中肯 可是很多聽不進去 忠言逆耳阿
09/06 18:34, 87F
推
09/06 20:43, , 88F
覺得這篇主要是在暗諷臺灣媒體
09/06 20:43, 88F
※ 編輯: FatBearInn 來自: 125.228.64.34 (09/06 21:03)
→
09/06 21:07, , 89F
感恩，已修正
09/06 21:07, 89F
推
09/06 21:50, , 90F
王的確還有很大進步空間 到那時看作者會有啥評論~~
09/06 21:50, 90F
推
09/07 02:26, , 91F
中肯的不得了阿 他對台灣的觀點很客觀而且了解的很深入
09/07 02:26, 91F
※ 編輯: FatBearInn 來自: 125.228.64.34 (09/07 05:01)
→
09/09 17:57, , 92F
不中肯 哪一個投手被放到鳥打隊不會勝率只剩50% ? ...
09/09 17:57, 92F
‣ 更多 FatBearInn 的文章
文章代碼(AID): #16ti87OH (CMWang)
討論串 (同標題文章)
完整討論串 (本文為第 13 之 35 篇)：
排序： 最新先 | 最舊先 | 留言數
在新視窗開啟完整討論串 (共35篇)
CMWang 近期熱門文章
更多 近期熱門文章 >>
PTT體育區 即時熱門文章
更多 即時熱門文章 >>
‣ 更多 FatBearInn 的文章
文章代碼(AID): #16ti87OH (CMWang)