別再用含混不清的WAR吧

看板MLB (美國職棒/大聯盟)作者時間13年前 (2012/10/08 21:47), 編輯推噓129(129099)
留言228則, 39人參與, 最新討論串1/8 (看更多)
http://www.murraychass.com/?p=5302 It has taken 45 years for someone to win the Triple Crown of hitting statistics, and the statistics zealots want to take it away from Miguel Cabrera. As Cabrera was zeroing in on the rare achievement, ESPN.com had a column about the “’real’ Triple Crown.” It was written by someone from something called “Baseball Think Factory.” I may be displaying my ignorance in not knowing what that is, but it sounds like something where its advocates could do themselves a favor by not thinking so much and just watch games for the pure enjoyment of them. 花了45年才有人達成三冠王 但數據狂熱分子卻想把桂冠從Cabrera手中奪去 當Cabrera挑戰紀錄時 ESPN上登出一篇文章討論"'真'三冠王" 作者是從某個叫 Baseball Think Factory的網站來的 或許是我孤陋寡聞 但這聽起來像是個 想太多數據卻缺少享受純粹棒球的樂趣的傢伙 I saw a commercial for an interview with Tony La Russa the other day, and he was saying that people forget that human beings play the games, a point I have long made to those who want to judge players strictly with statistics. Tony La Russa在日前的訪問中提到 大很多人都忘了球賽是人在打的 這正是我想對 那些只用數據判斷球員的傢伙說的話 The ESPN.com column noted that Cabrera was “on the cusp” of doing something even rarer than winning the Triple Crown, and that was winning the Triple Crown without leading the league in wins above replacement,” a.k.a. WAR. Mike Trout, the column noted, was “significantly ahead of everyone in the A.L.” in WAR. ESPn的文章指出Cabrera正在達成一樣比三冠王更少見的壯舉-贏得三冠王但WAR落後 文章上寫到Mike Trout的WAR遠遠領先美聯 Without getting into details, I note that the column inadvertently states one of the reasons I have no use for WAR. It cites two different versions of WAR, one computed by Baseball-Reference, another by FanGraphs. For all I know, there are still others. 我注意到文章有個我不喜歡WAR的理由 它引用了兩種不同版本的WAR 一個是來自BR 另一個來自FG 就我所知 還有其他的版本 Runs batted in are absolute. Home runs are the same wherever you look. Batting average is based on hits and at-bats. None of those statistics have different versions. If we accept new-age statistics, whom do we consult and trust, Baseball-Reference or FanGraphs or some other self-professed expert, Bill James perhaps? 打點是確定的 全壘打在哪看都一樣 打擊率是確定的 這些數據沒有版本差異 如果要我們接受新生代的數據 那請問 我們該相信BR的或是FG的 還是其他所謂的"專家" 像是Bill James? This column goes further, suggesting there might be a better way of determining players’ relative value, but I didn’t learn what it is because reading more of the column would have required payment, and that’s not going to happen. 文章還提到可能有更好的衡量價值的方法 但再看下去要花錢 所以我也不曉得後面說了什麼 On the other hand, I would like to offer at no cost a little English quiz to the column’s writer and his editors. Like the statistics advocates I call zealots, I am zealous about the correct use of the English language. I believe that is far more important than WAR and VORP. So this is my quiz: 順便一提 我可以給這位作家一點英文家教 就像數據狂熱分子 我也熱中於正確的英文使用 我相信這比什麼WAR還是VORP的更為重要 這是我給的小測驗: In ESPN.com’s Triple Crown column, find the grammatical errors in these sentences or phrases: 找出以下文句的文法錯誤 Cabrera would only be the second Triple Crown winner… The Tigers just have nine games left in the season… their is another trio of traditional stats that does a much better job of defining overall player value. Cabrera would only be the fourth… -- ※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc) ◆ From: 140.112.25.133

10/08 21:48, , 1F
今年MVP看來跟美國總統大選一樣刺激??XD
10/08 21:48, 1F

10/08 21:50, , 2F
為什麼網址點進去是"BYE, BYE BOBBY"?
10/08 21:50, 2F

10/08 21:50, , 3F
贊同要用數據就要用可以標準化的數據
10/08 21:50, 3F

10/08 21:53, , 4F
總統大選看起來一點都不刺激啊- -
10/08 21:53, 4F

10/08 21:54, , 5F
原來在下面
10/08 21:54, 5F

10/08 21:54, , 6F
打點的確是確定的,so what?也是人定義的不是嗎?
10/08 21:54, 6F

10/08 21:55, , 7F
又是abc...
10/08 21:55, 7F

10/08 21:58, , 8F
他的重點是有沒有一個統一的數據
10/08 21:58, 8F

10/08 22:00, , 9F
WAR套用在每個球員身上去算價值 這個公式對每個球員
10/08 22:00, 9F

10/08 22:00, , 10F
的評估是不是都符合 我認為..難講..
10/08 22:00, 10F

10/08 22:02, , 11F
辯論會完後好像有點變化了
10/08 22:02, 11F

10/08 22:05, , 12F
兩個進攻伯仲之間的選手 一個是中外野 一個是三壘手
10/08 22:05, 12F

10/08 22:05, , 13F
等哪天OPS+跟WAR能在官網STATS裡正式承認統計 再來討論吧
10/08 22:05, 13F

10/08 22:07, , 14F
所以樓上是認為官網有顯示的數字才叫數字囉
10/08 22:07, 14F

10/08 22:07, , 15F
天使沒進入季後賽 老虎有 這點就有差了吧
10/08 22:07, 15F

10/08 22:07, , 16F
要用WAR來看的話
10/08 22:07, 16F

10/08 22:07, , 17F
一個版本都統一不起來的數據是要看的多重
10/08 22:07, 17F

10/08 22:08, , 18F
單一棒球選手的影響力沒有想像中那麼的大
10/08 22:08, 18F

10/08 22:09, , 19F
每個人心中都有一版WAR
10/08 22:09, 19F

10/08 22:10, , 20F
就算沒有WAR,史上也不是每個三冠王都拿MVP的
10/08 22:10, 20F

10/08 22:10, , 21F
文法錯誤XD
10/08 22:10, 21F

10/08 22:11, , 22F
就算只看傳統數據,Trout也沒輸很多
10/08 22:11, 22F

10/08 22:11, , 23F
那WAR最高的每年都有拿MVP嗎= =
10/08 22:11, 23F

10/08 22:11, , 24F
當然沒有,因為古人根本不知WAR是啥
10/08 22:11, 24F

10/08 22:12, , 25F
可是古人還是在明知有三冠王的情況投了別人
10/08 22:12, 25F

10/08 22:16, , 26F
照你的推論 知道WAR這項數據後 人們都不會投給WAR最高以
10/08 22:16, 26F

10/08 22:16, , 27F
外的人了
10/08 22:16, 27F

10/08 22:17, , 28F
當然不是這樣說,但你敢保證投票者的腦袋不會被影響?
10/08 22:17, 28F

10/08 22:17, , 29F
講來講去都是同一套= = "誰會拿到票"和"誰該贏"兩回事
10/08 22:17, 29F

10/08 22:17, , 30F
abc繼續引戰
10/08 22:17, 30F

10/08 22:17, , 31F
King拿CY那次打大家的臉還不夠嗎?
10/08 22:17, 31F

10/08 22:17, , 32F
無限輪迴的戰文戰來戰去就那些東西 zzz
10/08 22:17, 32F

10/08 22:22, , 33F
WAR是啥,聽都沒聽過
10/08 22:22, 33F

10/08 22:22, , 34F
WAR什麼版本爭議的還是在守備和跑壘 但如果是這兩個人比較
10/08 22:22, 34F

10/08 22:23, , 35F
用印象派的方法就知道了
10/08 22:23, 35F

10/08 22:25, , 36F
abc PO不膩...
10/08 22:25, 36F

10/08 22:25, , 37F
就算根本不看WAR,比打擊Trout是有輸很多?比守備跑壘
10/08 22:25, 37F

10/08 22:25, , 38F
每次都再吵同樣的東西 兩邊無限跳針 煩不煩啊
10/08 22:25, 38F

10/08 22:26, , 39F
我根本不用拿數據也知道誰行
10/08 22:26, 39F
還有 149 則推文
10/09 00:17, , 189F
比如說前七局打完還領先,勝率九成或九成五之類的...
10/09 00:17, 189F

10/09 00:18, , 190F
在統計上很顯著,雖然可能只在當季有效。
10/09 00:18, 190F

10/09 00:18, , 191F
如果你是教練,有數據不但反應在當季的統計上
10/09 00:18, 191F

10/09 00:19, , 192F
且符合你的直覺,你就可以多嘗試幾次,直到被破解為止。
10/09 00:19, 192F

10/09 00:19, , 193F
其實我從頭到尾爭執的點只在"觸擊"這個點上 :p
10/09 00:19, 193F

10/09 00:19, , 194F
因為WPA不是一個看能力用的數據啊
10/09 00:19, 194F

10/09 00:19, , 195F
至於先馳得點要給額外權重是否有大樣本的統計數據支持
10/09 00:19, 195F

10/09 00:20, , 196F
觸擊只是二棒可能使用數種武器中的一種
10/09 00:20, 196F

10/09 00:20, , 197F
FG的數據解釋那邊有寫 這是一個"descriptive"的數字
10/09 00:20, 197F

10/09 00:20, , 198F
就像你可能出剪刀也可能出石頭出布一樣
10/09 00:20, 198F

10/09 00:20, , 199F
當你能在擺短棒迫使對方趨前的同時
10/09 00:20, 199F

10/09 00:20, , 200F
還能保持瞬間回覆正常揮擊而不被影響的能力
10/09 00:20, 200F

10/09 00:21, , 201F
那你就可以嘗試
10/09 00:21, 201F

10/09 00:25, , 202F
更別提如果你腳程高於平均水平很多
10/09 00:25, 202F

10/09 00:25, , 203F
你有可能因為自己以上壘為目的 的安全觸擊
10/09 00:25, 203F

10/09 00:25, , 204F
因為自己的內安或對方的失誤而達到實質上壘的結果
10/09 00:25, 204F

10/09 00:26, , 205F
而沒有浪費出局數
10/09 00:26, 205F

10/09 00:26, , 206F
則這就不是一個消極的選擇,而是一個積極的選擇
10/09 00:26, 206F

10/09 00:26, , 207F
Bourn表示:
10/09 00:26, 207F

10/09 00:28, , 208F
觸擊會降低期望值是因為他往往是很消極的浪費出局數
10/09 00:28, 208F

10/09 00:29, , 209F
但在我亂入徹底把這篇搞離題的時候
10/09 00:29, 209F

10/09 00:29, , 210F
我舉的例子就不是很消極的一定要自己出局的犧牲觸擊
10/09 00:29, 210F

10/09 00:30, , 211F
那只是秀給對手看的選項之一而已
10/09 00:30, 211F

10/09 00:31, , 212F
Bourn從數據上看不出是個愛用觸擊的打者說...
10/09 00:31, 212F

10/09 00:33, , 213F
他低潮時就會開大絕
10/09 00:33, 213F

10/09 00:33, , 214F
有請_____來講解一下....:P
10/09 00:33, 214F

10/09 00:43, , 215F
記得以前有查過選手的內野安打數據,現在忘記在哪可以查
10/09 00:43, 215F

10/09 00:43, , 216F
到了
10/09 00:43, 216F

10/09 00:53, , 217F
全壘打能力應該也要加分啊 因為不管打那個方向都沒法守(咦
10/09 00:53, 217F

10/09 00:54, , 218F
總之,我不反對前一棒上壘下一棒"偶爾"安全觸擊的戰術
10/09 00:54, 218F

10/09 00:55, , 219F
但是要前一棒上壘,下一棒"大部分"觸擊我是不以為然
10/09 00:55, 219F

10/09 00:56, , 220F
儘管說觸擊可以改收打,但是要長期這樣玩,打者本身打擊
10/09 00:56, 220F

10/09 00:57, , 221F
可以不受影響是最好,但是實際上真能不受影響容易嗎?
10/09 00:57, 221F

10/09 00:59, , 222F
何況牽扯到影響對方守備這層面,感覺已經不是單純用數據
10/09 00:59, 222F

10/09 01:00, , 223F
可以對其影響力做出很客觀的評估,或許這類球員好不好用
10/09 01:00, 223F

10/09 01:00, , 224F
端看GM或教練心中主觀的想法吧
10/09 01:00, 224F

10/09 01:24, , 225F
MVP本來就是看整體貢獻度
10/09 01:24, 225F

10/09 02:14, , 226F
乾脆列個團隊war 看看跟實際差多少吧
10/09 02:14, 226F

10/09 02:56, , 227F
想請問文法有哪些地方出錯呢?
10/09 02:56, 227F

10/09 10:32, , 228F
爭什麼 最後不都記者投票
10/09 10:32, 228F
文章代碼(AID): #1GSjbXXx (MLB)
文章代碼(AID): #1GSjbXXx (MLB)