[情報] WAR, a case study: Fielder vs. Ryan

看板MLB (美國職棒/大聯盟)作者時間13年前 (2013/03/01 09:29), 編輯推噓31(31047)
留言78則, 16人參與, 7年前最新討論串1/4 (看更多)
http://tinyurl.com/czyedbm The other night I tweeted that Prince Fielder's 50-homer season in 2007 -- when he hit .288/.395/.618 -- rates as the lowest wins above replacement total among the 42 seasons a player has hit at least 50. His 3.4 WAR on Baseball-Reference is one of just three of those 42 seasons the site evaluates as worth fewer than 5.0 wins, Mark McGwire's 4.9 in 1997 and Sammy Sosa's 4.5 in 1999 being the other two. I followed up that factoid by mentioning that in 2012 Mariners shortstop Brendan Ryan -- who hit .194 with a .277 on-base percentage and three home runs -- was worth 3.3 WAR. How can two players of such extreme differences in offensive production be valued so similarly? As somebody mentioned in a follow-up tweet, it's numbers like this that make many fans skeptical of WAR … or completely dismissive. With that in mind, I thought it would be a good idea to do a rough example of how WAR is calculated, using Fielder and Ryan -- and why it does work and why it (hopefully) makes sense. (For a much more thorough description, here is the Baseball-Reference explanation page, including the idea behind WAR and the concept of replacement level, and here's the specific page on the steps used for rating position players.) As Sean Forman writes on Baseball-Reference, "The basic currency of WAR is runs. We start with runs added or lost versus an average player and then compare the average player to a replacement player." The formula is this: Players Runs over Replacement = Player_runs - ReplPlayer_runs = (Player_runs - AvgPlayer_runs) + (AvgPlayer_runs - ReplPlayer_runs) OK, we'll start with runs on offense. Offense Using the linear weights method of evaluating offense -- giving value to each single, double, triple, home run, walk, hit by pitch, sacrifice and even reached on error -- Fielder created 143 runs in 2007. Ryan created 35 runs, so Fielder is off to a 108-run advantage right off the bat. But remember that we have to factor in the context those runs were created in. The National League in 2007 hit .266/.334/.423 (and even higher when you filter out pitcher hitting) and the American League in 2012 hit .255/.320/.411, which means Fielder will be compared to a better average hitter than will Ryan. Fielder also played in Miller Park, which is rated as a neutral park for the three-year park factors Baseball-References uses (park factor of 100), while Ryan played in Safeco Field, an extreme pitchers' park (park factor of 90, decreasing run scoring by 10 percent). So Ryan played in a tougher offensive environment, which means his batting runs are accordingly adjusted. Also, playing time -- Fielder produced his runs in 681 plate appearances while Ryan had 470. When each hitter is then compared to what a league-average hitter would produce in that amount of playing time, Fielder ends up at plus-44 runs and Ryan at minus-18, so the difference on offense is now 62 runs. Baserunning and runs on avoiding double plays It should not surprise you that a guy coming in somewhere close to 300 pounds doesn't earn extra value with his baserunning (including stolen bases and caught stealing). Fielder is minus-3 runs on baserunning, but plus-1 on double plays as he grounded into just nine that year. Ryan was average (zero runs) in both areas, so picks up two more runs in value, leaving Fielder at plus-60 runs. Defense This is the aspect of the game where Ryan shines. Baseball-Reference uses defense runs saved from Baseball Info Solutions, which evaluates every batted ball in a variety of categories, and then compares each player to the average fielder at his position. Ryan is rated at plus-27 runs, a very high figure -- the second highest of any fielder in 2012, and the fifth highest by a shortstop in the past decade. Fielder, meanwhile, is rated at 15 runs worse than an average first baseman, a very poor total. Look, are defensive stats perfect? No. Are they pretty good these days? Yes. Should one-year defensive stats in particular be viewed with some reservations? Sure. Was Ryan's 2012 season a defensive fluke? I don't think so. Defense runs saved has him at plus-25, plus-22, plus-18 and plus-27 in his four seasons as a regular, the first two with St. Louis, so it has consistently given high marks to his glove work. As for Fielder, everyone would agree that he's not exactly Keith Hernandez at first base. He's a big, heavy guy without much quickness who also made 14 errors that year. It's certainly plausible that he was 15 runs below an average first baseman (his defense has rated better in recent seasons). So Ryan has a huge 42-run advantage on defense, leaving Fielder at plus-18 runs. There are those who will argue that the value of defense is being overrated, that the margins between the best and worst fielders can't be that high. Well, why not? Ryan had 601 total chances in the field in 2012 -- about a full season's worth of plate appearances for a hitter. Sure, many of those are routine grounders and easy pop-ups that any competent major league shortstop can field. But a certain percentage of possible plays are not routine, and that's where defensive value comes in to play. As for Fielder, he made 423 outs at the plate in 2007, so he's not obtaining any value in about two-thirds of his plate appearances, as well. Final adjustments and wins The final adjustment made is a positional adjustment. Obviously, it requires more ability to play shortstop than first base, as reflected by the fact teams will play lesser hitters there. Since Ryan was being compared only to other good fielders at his position, and Fielder only to other first basemen, that has to be factored in. Baseball-Reference's current values for positional adjustment are plus-7.5 runs for shortstops (per 1,350 innings played) and minus-10 for first basemen. This ends up giving Ryan plus-6 runs and Fielder minus-10. Which puts us at … Fielder at plus-2 runs. From there, runs are converted to wins, and Fielder ends up at 3.4 wins above replacement and Ryan at 3.3. It's important to keep in mind that WAR is an approximation of value, not a definitive answer, but I hope this helps in explaining why a player who hit .194 can be viewed with the same value as a player who hit 50 home runs. By the way, Fielder's WAR in 2012: 4.4. Even though he hit only 30 home runs. -- ※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc) ◆ From: 140.112.25.133

03/01 09:35, , 1F
別小看Fielder的速度好嗎? 好歹人家也有跑過場內全壘打
03/01 09:35, 1F

03/01 09:39, , 2F
Brendan Ryan也有出頭天 XD
03/01 09:39, 2F

03/01 10:07, , 3F
其實看完還是不大理解QQ
03/01 10:07, 3F

03/01 10:08, , 4F
多打的分數跟多守下的分數同價值!?
03/01 10:08, 4F

03/01 10:09, , 5F
runs不也跟打線位置後面的人有關係嗎? 雖然前提是自己要
03/01 10:09, 5F

03/01 10:09, , 6F
先上壘
03/01 10:09, 6F

03/01 10:37, , 7F
好文,我試著翻翻看好了@@
03/01 10:37, 7F

03/01 10:51, , 8F
計算WAR的runs不是真正創造的runs(沒人可以計算這個)
03/01 10:51, 8F

03/01 10:51, , 9F
是根據wOBA算出來的理論值
03/01 10:51, 9F

03/01 10:51, , 10F
所以跟前後打者無關
03/01 10:51, 10F

03/01 10:53, , 11F
推這篇,淺顯易懂!
03/01 10:53, 11F

03/01 10:54, , 12F
然後根據畢氏定理,多打的分數跟多守的分數長期而言等價
03/01 10:54, 12F

03/01 11:10, , 13F
看Fangrahs的WAR兩人差遠了
03/01 11:10, 13F

03/01 11:14, , 14F
這篇文另一方面完全是指出了WAR的不足
03/01 11:14, 14F

03/01 11:24, , 15F
因為Fangraphs的WAR是用UZR 而不是Defensive runs saved
03/01 11:24, 15F

03/01 11:37, , 16F
用的方法不一樣算出來不一樣的結果怎麼會是問題-_-
03/01 11:37, 16F

03/01 11:38, , 17F
如果當初一家叫WAR一家叫XWB就問題了吧
03/01 11:38, 17F

03/01 11:38, , 18F
沒問題
03/01 11:38, 18F

03/01 11:52, , 19F
畢氏定理? 不是算三角形斜邊長的那個吧@@
03/01 11:52, 19F

03/01 12:09, , 20F
棒球的畢氏定理: 勝率~(得分)^2/(得分^2+失分^2)
03/01 12:09, 20F

03/01 12:10, , 21F
反正只要知道一點: BR和FG都"想要"做同樣的量化工作
03/01 12:10, 21F

03/01 12:11, , 22F
只是用的評鑑標準不一樣所以當然就會得到不同結果
03/01 12:11, 22F

03/01 12:11, , 23F
如果喜歡BR的模型 就以BR的當參考
03/01 12:11, 23F

03/01 12:11, , 24F
如果喜歡FG的模型 就以FG當參考
03/01 12:11, 24F

03/01 12:58, , 25F
我很好奇的是說,如果是這樣的話,那我們擺九個Ryan跟擺
03/01 12:58, 25F

03/01 12:59, , 26F
九個Fielder最後得到的勝場會不會差不多呢?
03/01 12:59, 26F

03/01 13:00, , 27F
不會,因為Ryan移去一壘的話WAR會大降,可能會變成負的。
03/01 13:00, 27F

03/01 13:03, , 28F
那如果是九個光靠守備就可以拿到近似或相等WAR的選手呢?
03/01 13:03, 28F

03/01 13:05, , 29F
不太可能,有些位置你守得再好也產出不了這麼多分
03/01 13:05, 29F

03/01 13:06, , 30F
即使是理論上,極端值應該都會有偏差
03/01 13:06, 30F

03/01 13:10, , 31F
一壘手什麼都不做就 -10, 要在跑壘和守備 +40 實在太難
03/01 13:10, 31F

03/01 13:10, , 32F
在火力需求較高的位置,你守備再好也要打出一定水準才能產
03/01 13:10, 32F

03/01 13:10, , 33F
出相近的WAR,例如Kotchman在11'的WAR也是3.4,他的打擊三
03/01 13:10, 33F

03/01 13:11, , 34F
圍是.306/.378/.422。
03/01 13:11, 34F

03/01 13:12, , 35F
然後,如果Fielder移到游擊去WAR不也會因此大降呢?
03/01 13:12, 35F

03/01 13:14, , 36F
胖王子去守游擊WAR可能會升.而且機率不是一般的大*-*
03/01 13:14, 36F

03/01 13:15, , 37F
這也不一定,要看他守備多掉的分數能不能跟打擊增加的分數
03/01 13:15, 37F

03/01 13:16, , 38F
抵銷,雖然有守位調整的優勢,但是他守備可能不是普通悽慘
03/01 13:16, 38F

03/01 13:16, , 39F
胖王子照公式算移到游擊先加17.5好了,但守備也會扣吧
03/01 13:16, 39F

03/01 13:17, , 40F
守備要扣到比在1b慘有可能嗎xdd
03/01 13:17, 40F

03/01 13:18, , 41F
只要不是連一壘都傳不了.範圍小就小了
03/01 13:18, 41F

03/01 13:19, , 42F
任憑WAR再怎麼合理﹐真正付錢的老板和GM還是不認的
03/01 13:19, 42F

03/01 13:19, , 43F
一個簡單的問題﹐Ryan能簽到20M/y的合約嗎?
03/01 13:19, 43F

03/01 13:20, , 44F
@pujos 游擊的守備機會比一壘手多很多; 即使守備一樣慘,
03/01 13:20, 44F

03/01 13:21, , 45F
這樣的話,那我把Fielder擺在游擊,這個Fielder跟Ryan
03/01 13:21, 45F

03/01 13:21, , 46F
Fielder 站游擊會因為守備機會增加而被狂扣
03/01 13:21, 46F

03/01 13:21, , 47F
討論Fielder守SS的WAR意義不大,不會有人會讓他站的 XDDD
03/01 13:21, 47F

03/01 13:21, , 48F
因為WAR差不多,而貢獻獲價值近似的命題不會因此無效嗎?
03/01 13:21, 48F

03/01 13:25, , 49F
理論上Fielder守一壘1年比平均一壘手多掉5分的話
03/01 13:25, 49F

03/01 13:26, , 50F
那他守游擊一年應該比平均游擊手多掉25分
03/01 13:26, 50F

03/01 13:29, , 51F
@hunterqiji:這不就是之前討論過的命題嗎?因為現在的FA
03/01 13:29, 51F

03/01 13:29, , 52F
市場機制的效率並不高阿
03/01 13:29, 52F

03/01 13:30, , 53F
胖王子去守ss假設只比ss平均多掉25分那早該去了xdd
03/01 13:30, 53F

03/01 13:30, , 54F
加上Rpos比他在1B還賺阿.而且賺不少
03/01 13:30, 54F

03/01 13:31, , 55F
理論上,是說如果他會守游擊的話
03/01 13:31, 55F

03/01 13:31, , 56F
然後一B還可以換一個守備更差的大砲
03/01 13:31, 56F

03/01 13:31, , 57F
理論上多掉25分就是守位校正啊,怎麼可能比1B還賺?
03/01 13:31, 57F

03/01 13:32, , 58F
最差的游擊手1年也才多掉15分
03/01 13:32, 58F

03/01 13:32, , 59F
所以說單以位子論.WAR對守備光譜越靠左的越不利
03/01 13:32, 59F

03/01 13:33, , 60F
最差的游擊手=>DJ兄一年掉過27分的勒-.-
03/01 13:33, 60F

03/01 13:34, , 61F
生涯平均18個賽季掉12.8分
03/01 13:34, 61F

03/01 13:35, , 62F
超過15分的賽季8個.然後A-Rod守3B
03/01 13:35, 62F

03/01 13:35, , 63F
守備數據本來就沒有在看一年的
03/01 13:35, 63F

03/01 13:36, , 64F
對了他掉27分那一年.靠吃Rpos該年度WAR還比胖王子07年多0.3
03/01 13:36, 64F

03/01 13:38, , 65F
我說的是說2012年最差的
03/01 13:38, 65F

03/01 13:39, , 66F
Derek Jeter一年的UZR最差是-17.9
03/01 13:39, 66F

03/01 13:40, , 67F
BIS的DSR有一些非常誇張的數據,我是沒研究過為什麼
03/01 13:40, 67F

03/01 13:40, , 68F
會那樣
03/01 13:40, 68F

03/01 13:40, , 69F
2012最差的是誰我不知道.不過Derek Jeter:-18
03/01 13:40, 69F

03/01 13:41, , 70F
*DRS
03/01 13:41, 70F

03/01 13:42, , 71F
不過BR用的是TZ.而不是UZR
03/01 13:42, 71F

03/01 13:42, , 72F
Fielder的DRS平均每1200局是-9
03/01 13:42, 72F

03/01 13:43, , 73F
守位校正理論上如果他能守游擊會是-29
03/01 13:43, 73F

03/01 13:43, , 74F
Jeter的DRS平均每1200局是-9
03/01 13:43, 74F

03/01 13:44, , 75F
打錯,-13
03/01 13:44, 75F

03/01 13:51, , 76F
BR2003年後用的是DRS
03/01 13:51, 76F

11/02 08:25, , 77F
不會,因為Ryan移去 https://noxiv.com
11/02 08:25, 77F

12/26 18:00, 7年前 , 78F
12/26 18:00, 78F
文章代碼(AID): #1HC0I3gU (MLB)
文章代碼(AID): #1HC0I3gU (MLB)